From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Altair][4K Basic] Bill "$$$" Gates Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:22:14 +0100 Check out (no, not in CVS) this reverse engineering and code analysis of the legendary Basic-in-4K written by Bill Gates, Paul Allen & Some other guy back in 1975: http://www.rjh.org.uk/altair/4k/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:56:28 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer Subject: [Smetana] On Turing Completeness (was: [Essies] ok, this is getting si > > 1) Research papers. "Evidence that SMETANA is not Turing-Complete," for Well, it's pretty simple, in fact: a SMETANA program with n statements can be thought of as a finite state machine having (n+1)! states, as there are n! possible arrangements of the n statements and n+1 possibilities to place the instruction pointer. This implies that (n+1)! is an upper limit for the number of steps a terminating SMETANA program can take; thus the halting problem for SMETANA programs is solvable, and SMETANA can not be Turing Complete. Btw, even if we allow swapping with nonexisting statements to create new statements, the number of mentioned statement labels is limited; what's needed to make SMETANA Turing complete is at least some way to either access data or to create completely new instructions in some way (maybe something like "Morph" n "to" m, meaning "take instruction at label n, add 1 to each of the labels mentioned in it and store it in label m" would suffice; but I'm not sure about that.) > > example. Should include the usual academic scientific stuff - > > hypothesis, experiments, observations, reasoning, conclusion, and of > > course references[1]. Judged (ideally) on scientific validity and > > value. Hmm, anyone willing to do that? Bertram -- `.oo' ,. (`-' '^\`-' ) Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes c-L'- an annual free trip around the Sun. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:00:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: Re: [Smetana] On Turing Completeness (was: [Essies] ok, this is gettin --- Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > > 1) Research papers. "Evidence that SMETANA is > not Turing-Complete," for > > Well, it's pretty simple, in fact: a SMETANA program > with n statements can > be thought of as a finite state machine having > (n+1)! states, as there are > n! possible arrangements of the n statements and n+1 > possibilities to > place the instruction pointer. This implies that > (n+1)! is an upper limit > for the number of steps a terminating SMETANA > program can take; thus the > halting problem for SMETANA programs is solvable, > and SMETANA can not be > Turing Complete. > Btw, even if we allow swapping with nonexisting > statements to create > new statements, the number of mentioned statement > labels is limited; > what's needed to make SMETANA Turing complete is at > least some way > to either access data or to create completely new > instructions in some > way (maybe something like "Morph" n "to" m, meaning > "take instruction > at label n, add 1 to each of the labels mentioned in > it and store it > in label m" would suffice; but I'm not sure about > that.) > > > > example. Should include the usual academic > scientific stuff - > > > hypothesis, experiments, observations, > reasoning, conclusion, and of > > > course references[1]. Judged (ideally) on > scientific validity and > > > value. > > Hmm, anyone willing to do that? Computational analysis was never my strong point, but I could go for a baked potato with sour cream right now... Here's something I've always wondered: Take a modified Turing machine. Read-only input, write-only output, finite store, hard-coded instructions. Is that Turing-complete (I'm inclined to say no)? Then again, I think I may have misstated the problem... /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:26:22 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: Re: [Smetana] On Turing Completeness (was: [Essies] ok, this is gettin Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > > 1) Research papers. "Evidence that SMETANA is not Turing-Complete," for > Well, it's pretty simple, in fact: a SMETANA program with n statements can > be thought of as a finite state machine having (n+1)! states, Ah indeed! There's the insight. I wouldn't have thought of that. > as there are > n! possible arrangements of the n statements and n+1 possibilities to > place the instruction pointer. This implies that (n+1)! is an upper limit > for the number of steps a terminating SMETANA program can take; thus the > halting problem for SMETANA programs is solvable, and SMETANA can not be > Turing Complete. One and a third grillion Zorkmids to Bertram! Can I post this explanation on the SMETANA page giving you full credit? Brian Connors wrote: > Here's something I've always wondered: Take a modified > Turing machine. Read-only input, write-only output, > finite store, hard-coded instructions. Is that > Turing-complete (I'm inclined to say no)? > Then again, I think I may have misstated the > problem... I think so too. The definition in my mind goes like this: a system is Turing-Complete if, *given an infinite store*, it can solve any computable problem. So the machine you describe is Turing-Complete. The less-discussed topic of 'Turing Power' might go like this: a system has a Turing-Power of x/y if, given a store of size y or larger, it can solve any computable problem of complexity x or less. I have no idea how you'd go about measuring problem complexity and reducing it to a nice simple number though. BSR -- SRI SYADASTI SYADAVAKTAVYA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADASTI CAVAKTAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVATAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVAKTAVYASCA says "But Noam, colourless green ideas *do* sleep furiously SOMEWHERE!" bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 02:48:25 -0700 From: "Cliff L. Biffle" Subject: [parsers] [math] Calculator software design I'm working on a piece of calculator software (specifically, for PalmOS), and among the things I need to be able to do is manipulate equations as equations, rather than the numbers they reduce to. As such, I need to be able to parse an entry string into components and manipulate them. A tree arrangement most appeals to me here (where X+Y would generate a + node, with X and Y hanging beneath it). The input is traditional algebraic infix notation (i.e. "(x+y)/(z+2)-4"). However, I'm very inexperienced with parser design, unlike the vast majority of people on this list. *grin* Can anyone recommend any references (particularly electronic ones)? (I'm developing in C.) I'm sure a lot of thought has already been given to parsing algebraic expressions--I just don't know where said thought would be stored. :-) Thanks! Cliff Biffle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:40:33 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [parsers] [math] Calculator software design On Thu, 17 May 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > However, I'm very inexperienced with parser design, unlike the vast > majority of people on this list. *grin* Can anyone recommend any > references (particularly electronic ones)? (I'm developing in C.) I'm > sure a lot of thought has already been given to parsing algebraic > expressions--I just don't know where said thought would be stored. :-) I've noticed it's hard to find good information on general parser design on the net (many good books, though, are available). As for scanner information, the flex info file is quite good imo (available also at http://www.gnu.org/doc/ or something like that). The documentation of bison sucks, but what you _really_ need to know is the API of the action blocks: In flex, you have a bunch of regexps, and when one of them matches, the matched text is available at the global "yytext". Moreover, if you want the regexp to form a token, you must return the token value in the action. Bison calls the flex-defined function yylex (in which the actions reside) and what yylex does is to activate the actions as the respective regexps occur in the input text. In addition to the return value of yylex, which is the "token type" the scanner returns to bison, they communicate via the global variable yylval, which is the "value" of the token returned to bison. Bison then makes these values passed in yylval available as $1, $2 and so on. This was not a very good explanation, but please take a look at the parser and scanner of b5. (http://sange.fi/~atehwa-u/b5/) They don't use token priority, but otherwise they're good examples of very ordinary scanner / parser. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:02:11 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: Re: [parsers] [math] Calculator software design On Thu, 17 May 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > I'm working on a piece of calculator software (specifically, for PalmOS), > and among the things I need to be able to do is manipulate equations as > equations, rather than the numbers they reduce to. As such, I need to be > able to parse an entry string into components and manipulate them. A tree > arrangement most appeals to me here (where X+Y would generate a + node, > with X and Y hanging beneath it). The input is traditional algebraic infix > notation (i.e. "(x+y)/(z+2)-4"). > > However, I'm very inexperienced with parser design, unlike the vast > majority of people on this list. *grin* Can anyone recommend any > references (particularly electronic ones)? (I'm developing in C.) I'm > sure a lot of thought has already been given to parsing algebraic > expressions--I just don't know where said thought would be stored. :-) > > Thanks! > Cliff Biffle Since you're using C, I guess you'll want to use Lex and Yacc. So here are some references I might or might not have looked at :-) http://ds9a.nl/lex-yacc/CVS/lex-yacc-howto.html http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/novak/lexpaper.htm http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/novak/yaccpaper.htm http://www.epaperpress.com/lexandyacc/index.html and of course, as Panu already pointed out, the Flex and Bison manuals. At the end of chapter one of the Ocaml Manual (http://caml.inria.fr/http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/htmlman/index.html) such a calculator gets generated not using lex and yacc. The object is to convert x + 2 * 3 to Plus (Ident 'x', Times (Const 2, Const 3)) or similar. So, we define the grammar for a simple language that has '+', '-', numbers and letters for identifiers: ::= | '+' ::= | '*' ::= | ::= [0-9]+ ::= [a-z] x+2*3 would get parsed like this: We start at , so we can match + . The first further gets matched to and then , while the second one gets matched to * , revealing -> * -> . So that's how we create the higher precedence of '*'. (I really do hope this makes sense in some way) Ok, so that's some theory, now implement that in C :-) Markus Kliegl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:01:07 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer Subject: Re: [Smetana] On Turing Completeness (was: [Essies] ok, this is gettin Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > > > > 1) Research papers. "Evidence that SMETANA is not Turing-Complete," for [SMETANA not Turing Complete] > One and a third grillion Zorkmids to Bertram! Well, where should I put these? I guess I'll just take 42 and leave the rest here in the list. > Can I post this explanation on the SMETANA page giving you full credit? Of course. Bertram -- `.oo' ,. (`-' '^\`-' ) Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes c-L'- an annual free trip around the Sun. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:09:26 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [lang] Introduction to lex/yacc (was Re: [parsers] [math] Calculator s "markus.kliegl" wrote: > > On Thu, 17 May 2001, Cliff L. Biffle wrote: > > [snip] > > However, I'm very inexperienced with parser design, unlike the vast > > majority of people on this list. *grin* Can anyone recommend any > > references (particularly electronic ones)? > > Since you're using C, I guess you'll want to use Lex and Yacc. So > here are some references I might or might not have looked at :-) > http://ds9a.nl/lex-yacc/CVS/lex-yacc-howto.html > [snip] Five hundred Zorkmids, stolen from Chris while his back is turned, to Markus for the great links, especially the first one. By some meaningless coincidence, I also am at the point in my life where I want to get my hands dirty with lex and yacc -- not only are they used for the game-rules parser on my current project, but a scripted audio composition/sample manipulation tool I'm working on at home will probably need a competent parser soon, as well. The above link seems to have just the right depth of explanation for me to get started. -Russell B ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [VAX, THE ONLY ASSEMBLER THAT CAN BE SUNG (IN ALL CAPS LETTERS)] Simul Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 20:41:22 +0100 I hope to buy a VAX Station 4000/60 on ebay (2 days left). If all goes well, I'll have binaries for Win32, Linux and VAX on my site :) In the meantime, check out this open-source VAX simulator http://www.forest-edge.net/evax.html which unfortunately does not run VMS yet. Still, probably way more KEWL than pvm. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:08:33 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Exeunt] Farewell to list@catseye "c y h m? h er e m e? c a n y o u h e a r m e o u t t h e r e ? Can you hear me? 'Cos if you can hear me out there... Check this one out! This is the big one. This is the one we've aaaaalll been waiting for! OK! Here we go!" list@catseye.mb.ca is officially closing this weekend. If it happens to still work after this weekend, that's just a "meaningless coincidence" and you should not expect such undocumented behaviour to be retained in future versions, if any, of the list. If you STILL haven't got the picture yet: if you haven't subscribed to lang@esoteric.sange.fi OR misc@esoteric.sange.fi OR sci@esoteric.sange.fi you will STOP receiving esoteric programming list traffic this weekend. Which is just fine, if that is what you wish to do, I'm just keeping you notified. Finland, Finland, Finland. It's the place to be! Thanks to EVERYONE who contributed! This list has always been a rocky journey, what with it changing from Befunge to Esoteric and what with me disappearing for months at a time and going CLEARLY MAD and all. Depending on how things go I may yet be running a mailing list in the future, but it's become a very low priority in my life (did I mention lang@esoteric.sange.fi yet? Yes I did. Go there. Do it. NOW. Directions at http://www.catseye.mb.ca/list.html ) and if a mailing list of mine ever does show itself again it'll almost certainly not be what it has been. Expect weirdness levels to steadily increase (as such trends can clearly be seen by looking at the list's history.) With any luck, www.catseye.mb.ca will remain (assuming MTS doesn't muck it up) in terms of my e-mail address and web pages. If not, other arrangements will happen and I'll notify as many of you as I can (esp. through lang@esoteric and/or personal e-mail.) If there's anything I expect to go kablooie besides the list, it'll be the CGI's, but it's not as if any of them were terribly system dependent, what with them being Perl and all. OK, over to Jenny. Here's the keyboard babe, go ahead Voila l'espace!?!?! Alors! Vive la revolution de la fee!!!!! Vive l'esprit libre!!!!! Teeheeheeheehee!!!!! OK, enough of your silly talk. I can't understand your strange moon language! It's making me dizzy! *sigh* Well anyway... There's still one and third grillion (less forty-two: YOU do the math, it's given me a headache) Zorkmids lying on the floor of list@catseye.mb.ca - if you need some, just help yourself. Plenty enough for all. I think there's still a few Animated Yen on the shelf over there, too. Hey, don't be shy. If you don't take 'em, someone else will, or they'll just be plowed under when the dragon excavator comes along to recycle the faery territory. Buried treasure for future pixie archaeologists, I suppose. So... to mark the occasion I managed to grow a Braight!!!!! Who'll buy this fine Braight? Very reasonable, only a couple of thousand Zorkmids! Anyone? C'mon, I gotta sell a Braight! One more time!!! The Snow Train is leaving the Power Station any minute now!!! Can't you hear the Bear Whistle?!? For the remainder of the weekend... expect nothing but song lyrics and poetry! If that's not your cup of tea, well, you ought to know where the DELETE key is by now :-) And when they stop showing up, that'll be a sign that the list has finally died a brutal, horrible, grizzly, bloody, painful, awful, and specifically satisfyingly NASTY death. Ahhh!!! Pet food! Wash rooms! Pick up trucks! Ignore any SPAM you may perceive! Don't eat horses, either - RIDE 'em instead! Don't ride buses, though - TAKE 'em instead! But above all... ...EAT YOUR VEGETABLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Adieu! Fondly and sincerely yours, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole, BSR (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris Pressey) Chaplain-Commandant-in-Standing, Greater Winnipeg Area Discordianism Fan Club -- SRI SYADASTI SYADAVAKTAVYA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADASTI CAVAKTAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVATAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVAKTAVYASCA says "But Noam, colourless green ideas *do* sleep furiously SOMEWHERE!" bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:30:41 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [Men Without Hats] Jenny Wore Black Jenny wore black, Jenny wore white. (White!) And Jenny was real, But almost not quite. And Jenny was here, She was almost inside. And Jenny was real, But Jenny was Frightened by the way We looked at her. And Jenny could see, She was only a child. Jenny concealed All but her smile. And when she smiled we said, "Hey. Hey! Could never see clear with tears in your face. Hey! Could never see clearly anyway! I said I loved you that day, and I do! We're only two strangers in ways." Oui, je sais... Jenny wore black, Jenny wore white. (White!) And Jenny was real, But almost not quite. (La, la la la, la la la!) And Jenny was here, She was almost on time. And Jenny was real, But Jenny was Heightened by the way We looked at her. And Jenny could see We'd been lost for a while... Jenny revealed All but her smile. And when she smiled we said, "Hey. Hey! Could never see clear with tears in your face! Hey! Could never see clearly anyway! I said I loved you that day, and I do! We're only two strangers in ways." Oui, je sais... Two holes for my eyes Where the dreams peter in, And I can't remember Wherever I've been... There's two holes for my eyes Where the dreams peter through... All I can remember Is when I was with you... Say "Hey. Hey! Could never see clear with tears in your face! Hey! Could never see clearly anyway! I said I loved you that day, and I do! We're only two strangers in ways." Oui, je sais... -- cpressey@mts.net (Note the new e-mail address - if for some reason the old ones don't get forwarded, this is where I can contacted - for the next month at least :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 04:41:44 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Poetry] how original... _Pretentious Pathological Poem in P# Major_ (by itself) Rhyme, Rhyme, Rhyme, Rhyme. Rhyme, Rhyme, Rhyme, Rhyme... Rhyme, Rhyme, Rhyme, Rhyme? Rhyme, Rhyme, Rhyme, RHYME! -- SRI SYADASTI SYADAVAKTAVYA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADASTI CAVAKTAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVATAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVAKTAVYASCA says "But Noam, colourless green ideas *do* sleep furiously!" bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 10:42:08 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [INXS] Listen Like Thieves I'm a puppet show On video, At the local bar In the high traffic By the red tail-lights... Everybody's down on their knees. Listen like thieves! But who'd have thought Well it's all in your hands? And we take it down To the end of town Where the hackers go, But they're losing touch When the lights go out. Everybody's down on their knees. Listen like thieves! But who'd have thought It's all in your hands? Everybody's down on their knees. Listen like thieves for the answers. But who'd have thought You've got it all in your hands? It's all in your hands. It's all in your hands! You are all you need. You are all you need. That's everything. So, hesitate. There's no time to wait... Do it for yourself! I said, Everybody's down on their knees. Listen like thieves! But who'd have thought It's all in your hands? You got it all. You got it all. It's all in your hands. You got it all, Got it all! I said, Everybody's down on their knees. Listen like thieves! But who'd have thought Well it's all in your hands? -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 10:48:18 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Violent Femmes] Machine I got a machine And I took over the world In one weekend I took over the world With my machine I did it because I was looking for a project And it was either Take over the world or learn French So I took over the world And next weekend I can learn French I got a machine And I took over the world But nothing changed That wouldn't be fair -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 11:19:47 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Sarah Harmer] Around this Corner I've been coming 'round this corner, I know one day we'll meet. I'll look in your eyes, And I'll look at the street, And I'll cover my heart So you can't see it beat, And I'll struggle...! How can I say When I don't know? If I feel lovin', Or if I feel low? I may wind up, And get into trouble...! Knowing that you been bad Is one of the worst feelings I ever had. And knowing that you been bad...! Did it mean much to ya? I thought I knew ya! Now I wish I had. I been coming 'round this corner One day, real slow... And I'll see myself reflected In someone I used to know. And I made up a way To keep goin' home Try to forget it Before I get to the door! But, How can I say What I don't know? If I feel lovin' Or if I feel low? I may wind up, And cry a big puddle...! And knowing that you been bad Is one of the worst feelings I ever had. And knowing that you been bad...! Did it mean much to ya? I thought I knew ya! Now I wish I had... How *can* you forgive that bad? Why do they call it the past, Oh when nothin' has passsed? Do do do do do do do, Do do do do do do do do, Do do do do do do do, Do do do do do do do... Knowing that you been bad Is one of the worst feelings I ever had. And knowing that you been bad...! Did it mean much to ya? I thought I knew ya! Now I wish I had. -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [NO MORE FUCKING ROCK'N'ROLL] Techno Classics Lyrics Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:29:49 +0100 Hey Bishop, You seem to think nobodys listening, but I do. And since I hate rock'n'roll, I figure I have to post some lyrics to techno classics. So, for starters, here are the lyrics for "Jeff Mills - The Hacker" Here is "Plastikman - Krakpot": And lets hear it for "Love Inc - The Comeback" Come Back Come Back Come Back Come Back Come Back Come Back Or, Claude Young - DJ Kicks (The Track): And, to finally let the bass kick, here is LFO - LFO L F O L F O L F O Hope that helps, bye, Gerson ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 11:35:56 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Bergman] The Windmills of Your Mind Round, Like a circle in a spiral, Like a wheel within a wheel... Never ending or beginning, On an ever-spinning reel... Like a snowball down a mountain, Or a carnival balloon... Like a carousel that's turning, Running rings around the moon! Like a clock whose hands are sweeping Past the minutes on its face. And the world is like an apple Twirling silently in space. Like the circles that you find In the windmills of your mind! Like a tunnel that you follow To a tunnel of its own... Down a hollow to a cavern Where the sun has never shone. Like a door that keeps revolving In a half-forgotten dream! Like the ripples from a pebble Someone tosses in a stream... Like a clock whose hands are sweeping Past the minutes of its face... And the world is like an apple Moving silently in space, Like the circles that you find In the windmills of your mind! Keys that jingle in your pocket! Words that jangle in your head! Why did summer go so quickly? Was it something that you said? Lovers walk along a shore, Leave their footprints in the sand! Is the sound of distant drumming Just the fingers of your hand? Pictures hanging in a hallway, And the fragment of a song... Half-remembered names and faces... But to whom do they belong? When you knew that it was over, You were suddenly aware That the autumn leaves were turning To the colour of her hair! Round, Like a circle in a spiral, Like a wheel within a wheel... Never ending or beginning, On an ever-spinning reel... As the images unwind... Like the circles that you find, IN THE WINDMILLS OF YOUR MIND! IN THE WINDMILLS OF YOUR MIND! In the windmills... Of your mind. -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 11:38:44 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: Re: [NO MORE FUCKING ROCK'N'ROLL] Techno Classics Lyrics Gerson Kurz wrote: > Hey Bishop, > You seem to think nobodys listening, but I do. And since I hate rock'n'roll, > I figure I have to post some lyrics to techno classics. Great! The more the merrier! EVERYONE join in you feel like it! :) ANYTHING EXCEPT "NINETY-NINE BOTTLES OF BEER," PLEASE -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 09:47:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: Re: [NO MORE FUCKING ROCK'N'ROLL] Techno Classics Lyrics --- Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > Gerson Kurz wrote: > > Hey Bishop, > > You seem to think nobodys listening, but I do. And > since I hate rock'n'roll, > > I figure I have to post some lyrics to techno > classics. > > Great! The more the merrier! EVERYONE join in you > feel like it! :) > > ANYTHING EXCEPT "NINETY-NINE BOTTLES OF BEER," > PLEASE > > -- > bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ Wow. I've never seen a Viking funeral for a mailing list before. I guess I just have to say... SPAM spam SPAM spam SPAMMITY SPAM spammity spammity spam Lyrics, right? ;-) Which is entirely appropriate since I think it was my account that was vectoring that weird spam contamination a couple of weeks ago. (I know my account's been spamjacked before; freakin Yahoo doesn't quite seem to know what to do about it, but the sewer pipe has been plugged.) /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 11:51:23 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Johnny Cash] Ring of Fire Love is a burning thing, And it makes a firey ring. Bound by wild desire, I fell into a ring of fire. I fell into a burnin' ring of fire! I went down, down, down, And the flames went higher! And it burns, burns, burns... The ring of fire! The ring of fire. I fell into a burnin' ring of fire! I went down, down, down, And the flames went higher! And it burns, burns, burns... The ring of fire! The ring of fire. The taste of love is sweet When hearts like ours meet. I fell for ya like a child, Oh, but the fire went wild! I fell into a burnin' ring of fire! I went down, down, down, And the flames went higher! And it burns, burns, burns... The ring of fire! The ring of fire. I fell into a burnin' ring of fire! I went down, down, down, And the flames went higher! And it burns, burns, burns... The ring of fire! The ring of fire. And it burns, burns, burns... The ring of fire! The ring of fire. The ring of fire. The ring of fire. The ring of fire. [fade] -- "Ouch!" bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 10:00:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: Re: [Johnny Cash] Ring of Fire Chris, you're echoing. How many times have your mother and I told you not to feed the list daemon LD50 of LSD before you shut it down, you silly boy? /Brian --- Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > Love is a burning thing, > And it makes a firey ring. > Bound by wild desire, > I fell into a ring of fire. > > I fell into a burnin' ring of fire! > I went down, down, down, > And the flames went higher! > And it burns, burns, burns... > The ring of fire! > The ring of fire. > > I fell into a burnin' ring of fire! > I went down, down, down, > And the flames went higher! > And it burns, burns, burns... > The ring of fire! > The ring of fire. > > The taste of love is sweet > When hearts like ours meet. > I fell for ya like a child, > Oh, but the fire went wild! > > I fell into a burnin' ring of fire! > I went down, down, down, > And the flames went higher! > And it burns, burns, burns... > The ring of fire! > The ring of fire. > > I fell into a burnin' ring of fire! > I went down, down, down, > And the flames went higher! > And it burns, burns, burns... > The ring of fire! > The ring of fire. > > And it burns, burns, burns... > The ring of fire! > The ring of fire. > The ring of fire. > The ring of fire. > The ring of fire. [fade] > > -- > "Ouch!" > bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... > http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ > > ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 12:00:44 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [DEFINATELY NOT FUCKING ROCK] [15th Century] L'homme arme' [15c. french] L'homme, l'homme, l'homme arme', l'homme arme', L'homme arme' doibt on doubter, doibt on doubter. On a fait partout crier Que chascun se viegne armer D'un haubregon de fer! [partial modern english] The armed man, the armed man... One should fear the armed man. The warning has been shouted everywhere That everyone should be armed With a suit of mail! -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [GABBER] Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 20:02:34 +0100 Here are some gabber classics, mostly from back in the days when ROTTERDAM ruled. Here is "Ech Heftag - Hakkuh": Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh!Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh!Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh!Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh!Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh!Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh!Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh!Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! Hakkuh! And "Hoolhouse - Hak Hak": Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak HakHak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak HakHak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak HakHak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak HakHak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak HakHak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak Hak And "Rotterdam Termination Source - Poing": Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing PoingPoing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing PoingPoing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing PoingPoing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing PoingPoing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing PoingPoing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing PoingPoing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing PoingPoing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing Poing and of course, the "Jump a little higher remix" of "Poing" Poing Poing Poing a little higher, Poing Poing Poing a little higher, Poing Poing Poing a little higher Poing Poing Poing a little higher, Poing Poing Poing a little higher, Poing Poing Poing a little higher Poing Poing Poing a little higher, Poing Poing Poing a little higher, Poing Poing Poing a little higher Poing Poing Poing a little higher, Poing Poing Poing a little higher, Poing Poing Poing a little higher and "King Dale - Utter" Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! Utter! and "Neophyte - Rotterdam": Komen wij uit Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Komen wij uit Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Komen wij uit Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Komen wij uit Rotterdam, Rotterdam, Rotterdam, And finally "Underground nation of Rotterdam - Ik Wil Dansen" "Ik Wil Dansen Ik Wil Dansen Ik Wil Dansen Ik Wil Dansen Ik Wil Dansen Ik Wil Dansen Ik Wil Dansen" You get the idea. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:02:12 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: Re: [VAX, THE ONLY ASSEMBLER THAT CAN BE SUNG (IN ALL CAPS LETTERS)] On Thu, 17 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote: > I hope to buy a VAX Station 4000/60 on ebay (2 days left). If all goes well, > I'll have binaries for Win32, Linux and VAX on my site :) In the meantime, > check out this open-source VAX simulator > > http://www.forest-edge.net/evax.html > > which unfortunately does not run VMS yet. Still, probably way more KEWL than > pvm. > I just saw that you lost the auction on the VAX station, so here's some music to cheer you up: 99 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 99 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 98 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 98 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 98 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 97 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 97 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 97 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 96 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 96 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 96 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 95 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 95 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 95 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 94 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 94 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 94 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 93 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 93 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 93 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 92 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 92 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 92 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 91 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 91 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 91 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 90 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 90 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 90 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 89 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 89 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 89 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 88 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy ... 66 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 66 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 65 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 65 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 65 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 64 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 64 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 64 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 63 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 63 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 63 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 62 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 62 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 62 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 61 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 61 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 61 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 60 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 60 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 60 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 59 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 59 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 59 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 58 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 58 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 58 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 57 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 57 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 57 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 56 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 56 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 56 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 55 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 55 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 55 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 54 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 54 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 54 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 53 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 53 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 53 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 52 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 52 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 52 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 51 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 51 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 51 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 50 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 50 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 50 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 49 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 49 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 49 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 48 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 48 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 48 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 47 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 47 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 47 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 46 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 46 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 46 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 45 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 45 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 45 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 44 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy ... 15 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 15 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 14 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 14 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 14 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 13 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 13 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 13 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 12 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 12 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 12 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 11 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 11 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 11 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 10 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy ... 5 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 5 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 4 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 4 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 4 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 3 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 3 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 3 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 2 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 2 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 2 obggyrf bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq 1 obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy 1 obggyr bs orre ba gur jnyy 1 obggyr bs orre Gnxr bar qbja naq cnff vg nebhaq Ab obggyrf bs orre ba gur jnyy I normally listen to 99 bottles of beer to cheer myself up, but since Chris specifically requested not to have it... FINE, HE/JENNY IS THE BOSS AFTER ALL! Markus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:19:14 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Daft Punk] One More Time! One More Time! One More Time! One More Time! We're gonna celebrate! Oh, yeah! Alright! Don't stop the dancin'! One More Time! We're gonna celebrate! Oh, yeah! Alright! Don't stop the dancin'! "One-More" Time! We're gonna celebrate! Oh, yeah! All right! Don't stop the dancin'! 1 More Time! We're gonna sell a Braight! 0 Ya! Won More Time! One More Time! We're gonna celebrate! Oh, yeah! Alright! Don't stop the dancin'! One More Time! We're gonna cell abrate! Oh yah! Don't stop the dan! Sin! Won More Time! MM-mm-mm-mmmmm-mmmm... Y'know I'm just feelin' *CE LIB'RATION* Tonight! Celebrate! Don't wait too late... MMM NO, WE don't stop, YOU can't stop, We're gonna sell a Braight! One More Time! "One-More" Time! Won More Time! A celebration... You KNOW we're gonna do it! Right-ah! Tonight-ah! Hey! Just feelin'... Music's got me feeling the need! NEED! Ye-Ah! Come ON! 'All Rite! WE'RE GONNA CELEBRATE! Won More Thyme! Sell a Braight, and dance so free! Music's got me feelin' so free! Celebrate, and dance so free! One More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna celebrate! Sell a Braight, and dance so free! Won More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna celebrate! Celebrate, and dance so free! One More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna celebrate! Sell a Braight, and dance so free! Won More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna celebrate! Celebrate, and dance so free! Won More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna sell a Braight! Celebrate, and dance so free! 1. More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna sell a Braight! Sell a Braight, and dance so free! 1. More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna celebrate! Celebrate, and dance so free! 1. More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna sell a Braight! Sell a Braight, and dance so free! 1. More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna celebrate! Won More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna sell a Braight! Sell a Braight, and dance so free! Won More Time! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna sell a Braight! Sell a Braight, and dance so free! Won More Thyme! Music's got me feelin' so free! We're gonna sell a Braight! Sell a Braight, and dance so free! Won More Thyme! Muse Ix got me feel in so free! We're gonna sell a Braight! Sell a Braight, and DANCE, SO, FREE! -- "Braights for sale! Wanna free sample? DRY RED WINE + FRUIT PUNCH = YUM" bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:26:44 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Dali] Metamorphosis Of Narcissus Brian Connors wrote: > Chris, you're echoing. How many times have your mother > and I told you not to feed the list daemon LD50 of LSD > before you shut it down, you silly boy? "I don't need drugs. I *AM* drugs." -- Salvadore Dali _Metamorphosis Of Narcissus_ Narcissus, in his immobility, absorbed by his reflection with the digestive slowness of carnivorous plants, becomes invisible. There remains of him only the hallucinatingly white oval of his head, his head again more tender, his head, chrysalis of hidden biological designs, his head held up by the tips of the water's fingers, at the tips of the fingers of the insensate hand, of the terrible hand, of the mortal hand of his own reflection. When that head slits when that head splits when that head bursts, it will be the flower, the new Narcissus, Gala - my narcissus -- And now, to put it to music and make a FUCKING ROCK SONG outta it. :) bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:46:18 +0100 (GMT+01:00) From: mccoy1@another.com Subject: +++foreigners want to finance/buy your business Foreigners want to buy or finance your business speak to them right now. ( This is a group of 317 venture capital firms, angels, private investors) (WE LIMIT CUSTOMERS) Contact us right now at our United States office and we will e-mail you back written details. Do not just e-mail back to us it will NOT reach us we are in transit. Please use these ONLY these e-mails below to contact us. helen227@myrealbox.com usa2020@mail.com or fax us at 305-847-3945 in the U.S.. and include your e-mail address so we can e-mail you back our credentials. Please include contact name...............along with your e-mail address Best Regards, Helen Hunter To remove only.......................... sales878@myrealbox.com ----- 20 email addresses from 15,000 domain names - free at http://www.another.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 15:59:55 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Bexter] Hall Cat I'm a hall cat I live in the hall Do you believe that? Yeah, I thought you might. Well, alright! My name is Bright But some people call me Mister You believe that, right? Yeah, that's what I thought. But it's not. Mine, mine, mine! Do you smell like me yet? I better keep rubbing! Mine, mine, MINE! I look around I never know what I'll find. I fish for scraps I never know what I'll find. I once got caviar! Do you believe that? It was delicious. Have you ever had caviar? Yeah, that's what I thought. I once got banana peppers! Can you believe it? They were atrocious. Have you ever had banana peppers? Yeah, that's what I thought! But I won't turn down milk Nor catnip neither! YES YES YES! Mine, mine, mine! Do you smell like me yet? I better keep rubbing! Mine, mine, MINE! I look around I never know what I'll find. I hunt for bugs I never know what I'll find. Last night I ate a gnat! Do you believe that? It was nutritious. Have you ever had a gnat? Well you would if you were a hall cat! Last week I caught a butterfly! Can you believe it? I too was suspicious. Have you ever had a butterfly? Yeah, that's what I thought. ...But it's not! But I won't turn down roaches Nor a grasshopper neither! YES YES YES! Mine, mine, mine! Do you smell like me yet? I better keep rubbing! Mine, mine, MINE! I'm a hall cat I live in the hall Do you believe that? Yeah, I thought you might. Well, goodnight! My name is Bexter But some people call me Trouble Do you believe *that*? Just as I suspected. But don't feel rejected. Too late for a sleepy hall cat So I'll curl up on your doormat Under which you hide your keys. (Yeah, don't think I didn't notice.) -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 16:11:06 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Virtual New Orleans Viking Funeral] Brian Connors wrote: > Wow. I've never seen a Viking funeral for a mailing > list before. That's about the size of it! > I guess I just have to say... > SPAM spam SPAM spam SPAMMITY SPAM spammity spammity > spam > Lyrics, right? ;-) RIGHT! And if you don't have any musical ability, feel free to toss in your favourite ASCII ART!!!!! :) And if you don't like it - fuck it! If you were paying attention you'd KNOW where the off switch is. list-unsubscribe@catseye.mb.ca > Which is entirely appropriate since I think it was my > account that was vectoring that weird spam > contamination a couple of weeks ago. Probably not entirely; after all, the email address list@catseye.mb.ca was listed on my list.html page for the longest time, surely many spamcrawlers tried to sent shit to it allatime, only when I opened up the list to non subscribers did we actually see it. -- Haven't had this much fun in centuries! bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 16:36:04 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Bad Religion] DO WHAT YOU WANT "markus.kliegl" wrote: > I normally listen to 99 bottles of beer to cheer myself up, but since > Chris specifically requested not to have it... FINE, HE/JENNY IS THE BOSS > AFTER ALL! [And "THE BOSS" sez] DO WHAT YOU WANT! HEY DO WHAT YOU WANT! BUT DON'T DO IT AROUND ME! IDLENESS AND DISSIPATION BREED APATHY! I SIT ON MY ASS ALL GODDAMN DAY! A MISANTHROPHIC ANTHROPOID WITH NOTHING TO... SAY WHAT YOU MUST! DO ALL YOU CAN! BREAK ALL THE FUCKIN' RULES AND GO TO HELL WITH SUPERMAN AND DIE LIKE A CHAMPION! YEAH-HEY! YEAHY I DON'T KNOW IF THE BILLIONS WILL SURVIVE! BUT I'LL BELIEVE IN GOD WHEN 1+1=5! MY MONIKER IS MAN AND I'M ROTTEN TO THE CORE! I'LL TEAR DOWN THE BUILDING JUST TO PASS THROUGH THE DOOR! SO DO WHAT YOU MUST! DO ALL YOU CAN! BREAK ALL THE FUCKIN' RULES! AND GO TO HELL WITH SUPERMAN! AND DIE LIKE A CHAMPION! YEAH-HEY! YEAH-HEY! -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:49:12 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: Re: [Bad Religion] DO WHAT YOU WANT On Sat, 19 May 2001, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > "markus.kliegl" wrote: > > I normally listen to 99 bottles of beer to cheer myself up, but since > > Chris specifically requested not to have it... FINE, HE/JENNY IS THE BOSS > > AFTER ALL! > > [And "THE BOSS" sez] > > DO WHAT YOU WANT! > > HEY DO WHAT YOU WANT! > BUT DON'T DO IT AROUND ME! > IDLENESS AND DISSIPATION > BREED APATHY! > > I SIT ON MY ASS > ALL GODDAMN DAY! > A MISANTHROPHIC ANTHROPOID > WITH NOTHING TO... > > SAY WHAT YOU MUST! > DO ALL YOU CAN! > BREAK ALL THE FUCKIN' RULES > AND GO TO HELL WITH SUPERMAN > AND DIE LIKE A CHAMPION! > > YEAH-HEY! > > YEAHY I DON'T KNOW > IF THE BILLIONS WILL SURVIVE! > BUT I'LL BELIEVE IN GOD > WHEN 1+1=5! > > MY MONIKER IS MAN AND > I'M ROTTEN TO THE CORE! > I'LL TEAR DOWN THE BUILDING > JUST TO PASS THROUGH THE DOOR! > > SO DO WHAT YOU MUST! > DO ALL YOU CAN! > BREAK ALL THE FUCKIN' RULES! > AND GO TO HELL WITH SUPERMAN! > AND DIE LIKE A CHAMPION! > > YEAH-HEY! > > YEAH-HEY! FEAR MY MIGHT I AM IN SIGHT THIS SPONTANEOUS POEM WILL SCRATCH YOU LIKE A COMB I LEFT OF ALL YOUR EXCLAMATION MARKS BUT AN IMAGINARY DOG IN THE BACKGROUND BARKS *GRRRRRR* *RUFFF* *BAAAARK* *BARK* *BARK* ON YOUR SHOULDER, SEE THAT BLOOD MARK I WILL DO WHAT I CAN TO KILL SUPERMAN I WILL BREAK ALL THE FUCKING RULES WITH THE HELP OF MY TOOLS I WILL DO WHAT I WANT YOU CANNOT STOP ME GRUNT I'LL STAND IN FRONT OF THE BUILDING WHEN YOU COME TO GET ME I'M AWAITING YOU HERE I'LL GET YOU DRUNK WITH BEER IN GOD BELIEVE YOU WILL 1+1=5 IS AN OVERKILL GO TO HEAVEN, IF YOU MUST ERIS NO DOUBT WILL EAT YOUR CRUST JENNY AND I HAVE A LOVE AFFAIR NOT THAT YOU SHOULD CARE... MY RHYMING IS REALLY BAD BUT IT'S BECAUSE I'M MAD NOT CLEARLY THOUGH NEARLY SUPERMAN AND CHAMPION MARKUS (THE GUY THAT WENT TO HELL WITH A BIG YEAH-HEY!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 19:45:06 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Krypton] Let's Blow Up the Tow Truck! "markus.kliegl" wrote: > I WILL DO WHAT I CAN > TO KILL SUPERMAN > I WILL BREAK ALL THE FUCKING RULES > WITH THE HELP OF MY TOOLS [WhEheEheEEE!!! Jenny *really* liked that verse!!! Gave her multiple faery orgasms - or whatever the HELL she gets when she likes something THAT much - I don't even really wanna know...] [DaMmIt! Wouldn't you know it? I can't find the lyrics for the Krypton song "Let's Blow Up the Tow Truck" ANyWhErE! Oh well, we'll have to settle for the chorus only... unless some other BEARLY MAD list subscriber is kind enough to have remembered them, any Dr. Demento fans in the house tonight?] LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 02:56:59 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: [Fsck'd up lyri*x] Back in NYC Well, I'm a Jeff Buckley fan, have been for a long time, and this is the only decent Genesis song, ever... I see faces and traces of home Back in New York City. So you think I'm a tough kid, Is that what you've heard? Well, I like to see some action, And it gets into my blood. Well, they let me out of Pontiac When I was just seventeen: I had to get it out of me, If you know what I mean, what I mean. They say I must be crazy 'Cause I don't care who I hit, who I hit. 'Cause I know it's me who's hitting out And I'm not full of shit. Down by my bottle, filled up with Gasoline -- You can tell by the night fires Where the rail has been, has been. As I cuddled the porcupine He said I had none to blame but me. Gave my hear, deep in hell, Time to shave, shave it off, it off No time for romantic escape and your Fluffy heart is ready for rape Off we go. Off we go. Off we go You're sitting in your comfort Who don't believe I'm real You cannot buy protection For the way I feel. Your progressive hypocrites Handing out their trash It was mine in the first place So I'll burn it to ash When I've taken all the strongest meats And layed them out on coloured sheets. Well, who needs illusions, Of love and affection when you're out Walking in the streets, your mainline connection. Connnection. As I cuddled the porcupine He said I had none to blame but me. Gave my hear, deep in hell, Time to shave, shave it off, it off No time for romantic escape and your Fluffy heart is ready for rape. No, no time for romantic escape and your Fluffy heart is ready for rape. No. No time for romantic escape and your Fluffy heart is ready for rape. No time. Back in New York City. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Gaughan | In the land of the blind, the Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. | one-eyed man is a heretic. --------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 03:15:27 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: [More Jeff] (was Re: [Virtual New Orleans Viking Funeral]) Silence was insane -- parting was mutual... Tell the man, I'm never coming back again... I've only came to see you smile... Blood red with red gunshot glitter And be one with all you disown in your young life. Left behind a hyponotising swirl... Why should you care if I crash your affair? Why should you notice me? I really want to see you shine. -------- And especially for Jenny... I want to tell you a story About a little cutey She's ass-slappin' pretty And voluptuous fingers Wanna let her lick me Stick the thick of her pussy (just got 2 chillis in Eudora) From across the street Shee looks good enough to eat me Kitty! Your flesh is nice Your flesh is nice Let me take a bite Your flesh is nice. Oh, I take off my belt Oh, I whip the staircase (whip the staircase) Kill all the men Everything's dead to them You're the only one I follow Come on and let me give you that "O" Your flesh is nice I wanna take you twice Your flesh is nice Ooo your flesh is nice Your flesh is nice Wanna take a bite Your flesh is so nice Your flesh is so Your flesh is so Your flesh is so Your flesh is so Nice. -------- And my favourite... I know you're a woman by the way you burn below. I'll tell you secrets so good, you'll never tell as soul. Come closer, that bonfire holds his life like stones My years, my life unknown. Diamonds from the pavement Where the broken glass had been. Just like these troubles that I'm leaving to the wind. Like sapphires in boxcars speeding t'wards the end. Like thieves, my bad luck grows. Jewel box of sadness, bring to catch your tear Crystallise illusion shine, forgot I'm here. Jewel box of sadness, bring to catch your tear Oh, you left some stars in my belly. Starcrossed child's love on the bands of wedding gold. Silver studs of promise hide in the red crushed velvet folds. Inaction, intention, like emeralds I stole. My speech of custom gold. I think I ought to know. Jewel box of sadness, bring to catch your tear Crystallise illusion shine, forgot I'm here. Jewel box of sadness, bring to catch your tear Oh, you left some stars in my belly. Oh, you left some stars in my belly. Oh, you left some stars in my belly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Gaughan | In the land of the blind, the Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. | one-eyed man is a heretic. --------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 03:21:11 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: [Recent SMS] Lyric I sent to a friend At 16:11 19/05/2001 -0500, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: >And if you don't have any musical ability, feel free to toss in your >favourite ASCII ART!!!!! :) It's all art to me... Completely original stuff, honest! He's the guy with the Luke Skywalker hair: Just because he says he can Doesn't mean he cares... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Gaughan | In the land of the blind, the Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. | one-eyed man is a heretic. --------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 03:27:58 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: [That's a wrap] To the greatest mailing lit of all time, and Who are one in the same... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Gaughan | In the land of the blind, the Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. | one-eyed man is a heretic. --------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 03:40:50 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: [Yet more Jeff] I know we could be so happy, baby -- Are Jenny One thing: read my tagline :-) The list's parting lovesong for Jenny. There's no easy answer, none to blame or forgive. Two cripples dancing to the end we live. I'm not with you, not of you. Not with you, not of you. You are soft and young to me I am the ghost who comes and goes And I hope I'll catch you in the throws Of one last look at the wonder, One last look at the wonder. Oh, God, I love you! And all the past we once knew. Some other love becomes you Whatever else we come to I know we could be so happy, baby If we wanted to be You are soft and young to me I am the ghost who comes and goes I'm hoping that I'll catch you in the throws Of one last look at the joy that we've become. But there's no easy answer, none to blame or forgive. We were two cripples dancing, to the bitter end we live. I'm not with you, but of you I'm not with you, but of you Oh, God, I loved you! And all the past we once knew Some other love becomes you Whatever else it comes to I know we could be so happy, baby If we wanted to be We had a birthplace in common We had separate beds and lives. I'll just sit here and glow Break out the oldest pictures, Hang your ruined letters out to dry. We had a birthplace in common, And separate beds and lives. I know that we could be so happy, baby If we wanted to be. I know that we could be so happy, baby If we wanted to be. Yeah, oh. The spirit of Jenny speaks to me through my sphincter. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Gaughan | In the land of the blind, the Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. | one-eyed man is a heretic. -- Drunk, in Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much JeffB. -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:55:36 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Collective Soul] The World I Know Keith Gaughan wrote: > Back in New York City. [Good song. I almost forgot about New York City... thanks for the reminder.] Has our conscience shown? Has the sweet breeze blown? Has all kindness gone? Hope still lingers on... I drink myself of newfound pity Sittin' alone in New York City And I don't know why. ARE WE LISTENING? Hymns of offering. Have we eyes to see? Love is gathering. All the words that I've been reading Have now started the act of bleeding Into one. In 2 1. So I walk upon high, And I step to the edge, To see my world below. And I laugh at myself Whoa-as the tears roll down... 'Cos it's the world I know. Oh, it's the world I know! I drink myself. A new-found deity... Send 'er 'long to New York City, And I don't know why. Don't "No". "Why". So I walk upon high, And I step to the edge: To see my world below. And I laugh at myself As the tears roll down; 'Cause it's the world I know. Oh, it's the world I know! Yeah, I walk up on high! And I step to the edge To see my world below. And I laugh at myself Whoa-as the tears roll down! 'Cause it's the world I know! Oh, it's the world I know! -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:35:34 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Men Without Hats] In the Name of Angels Keith Gaughan wrote: > [That's a wrap] To the greatest mailing list of all time, and Jenny. > Who are one in the same... [ like this: ] Jenny had a vision: Jenny had a vision Of her Mother dancing In the middle of A million rainbows. And everywhere you looked The colour Love was dancing In the middle of Expanding haloes. And Jenny held Johnny to the sweetest promise: "Can you tell me which way your name goes?" But all he really wanted to was to be dishonest, He never really liked tornadoes... THEY'RE ALL IN THE NAME OF ANGELS! Singing. Johnny had a vision Of the understanding, But he couldn't tell his Mom Or me, though. He said it was a mission That we took for granted. *Tell* me which way The rain bows! And Jenny heard Johnny break the sweetest promise. And it sounded like a thunder game show! When all he really wanted was to be this honest: He never really liked tornadoes... THEY'RE ALL IN THE NAME OF ANGELS! Singing. * You can lose your head. * * You can lose your mind. * * You can lose your way. * * Keep your eyes, and stay divine. * And you can lose your head. You can lose your mind. And you can lose your way. Keep your eyes, and stay divine! Jenny loves Johnny like the Earth and Sun In the middle of a moment, they will all be, hon. Johnny loves Jenny like the Wind and Sea In the middle of forever, they will all be free. Jenny loves Johnny like the Wind and Sun In the middle of a moment, they will all be one. Johnny loves Jenny like the Earth and Sea In the middle of forever, we can all be free! Say: * You can lose your head. * * You can lose your mind. * * You can lose your way. * * Keep your eyes, and stay divine. * And you can lose your head. You can lose your mind! And you can lose your way. Keep your eyes, and stay divine. And you can lose your head. You can lose your mind. And you can lose your way. KEEP YOUR EYES AND STAY DIVINE! [distantly] Mommy! -- Drunk, with a slight headache, in Winnipeg, listening to too much MWH... bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:45:21 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Men Without Hats] Walk on Water [Do you believe in magic? I do - just enough to let it work. :) Two months ago that thought would have been unthinkable for me. Certainty'll do that to you! BEHOLD THE POWER OF DOUBT!] Here is the water, The one that rushes From our hearts into the sea. Endlessly hoping to be. Here is the water, The one that rushes From our minds into the street. Endlessly hoping to meet... They said that we could walk on water, They said that we should knock on wood. We did none of these things, And they said we could sing, So we sang about falling in looove. They said that we were getting smarter, They said that we were something new. We were none of these things, And they said we could sing, So we sang about twenty and two. WE DONE ALL THE WRONG THINGS, AND WE HOPE WE DONE GOOD! They said we were the new beginning, They said we were a brand new start. We were none of these things, And they said we could sing, So we sang about the state of the art! They said we were the second coming, They said we were a different breed. We were none of these things, And they said we could sing, So we sang about the birds and the bees! BUT YOUR FEAR AND YOUR ANGER, YOU WERE DOWN ON YOUR KNEES! Can you walk on water? Can you walk on wah-ahh-ahh-ter? Oh, no! And can you walk on wah-ahh-ahh-ter? Oh-hoh can you walk on water? They said that we could walk on water, They said that we should knock on wood. We did none of these things, And they said we could sing, So we sang about falling in looove. That say that we say we say something, That say that we say something new, We say some of these things, We make do what we sing, So we sing about a hundred and two! BUT IF NOBODY LISTENS, WELL, NOTHING COMES TRUE! When you walk on water. When you walk on wah-ahh-ahh-ter... Oh, no! Can you walk on wah-ahh-ahh-ter? Oh can you walk on water? Can you walk on wah-ahh-ahh-ter? Oh, no! Can you walk on wah-ahh-ahh-ter? Oh-hoh can you walk on water? We never walked on wah-ahh-ahh-ter! So tell me something's water... [distantly] Wah-ahh-ahh-ter! -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 02:34:45 -0400 From: Greg Velichansky Subject: Re: Twa Corbies (from memory so not accurate to the letter...) One night as I walked all alane, I heard twa corbies makin' mane; the tane intae the tither did say, oh Whaur sall we gang and dine the day, oh Whaur sall we gang and dine the day? It in hind yon auld fell dike, I wot there lies a new-slain knight and nae-body kens that he lies there, oh but his hawk and his hound and his lady fair, oh His haw and his hound and his lady fair. His hound is tae the hunting gane; His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame; His lady's taen anither mate, oh So we maun mak' our dinner swaet, oh We maun mak' our dinner swaet. I'll sit on his white haus-bane and you'll pike out his bonny-blue een, Wi' many a lock o' his golden hair, oh We'll theeck our nest when it grows bare, oh Theeck our nest when it grows bare. Many a ane for him mak's mane but nane sall ken whaur he is gane; oer his white bones when they are bare, oh the wind sall blow for ever maer, oh the wind sall blow for ever maer. [One of the few songs I can sing. You can find it on a Steeleye Span album though the song is from a different century afaik. "Haus-bane" refers to the breast-bone. Bye-bye, list.] gsv ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 17:38:52 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: Re: [Krypton] Let's Blow Up the Tow Truck! On Sat, 19 May 2001, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > "markus.kliegl" wrote: > > I WILL DO WHAT I CAN > > TO KILL SUPERMAN > > I WILL BREAK ALL THE FUCKING RULES > > WITH THE HELP OF MY TOOLS > > [WhEheEheEEE!!! Jenny *really* liked that verse!!! Gave her multiple > faery orgasms - or whatever the HELL she gets when she likes something > THAT much - I don't even really wanna know...] > > [DaMmIt! Wouldn't you know it? I can't find the lyrics for the Krypton > song "Let's Blow Up the Tow Truck" ANyWhErE! Oh well, we'll have to > settle for the chorus only... unless some other BEARLY MAD list > subscriber is kind enough to have remembered them, any Dr. Demento fans > in the house tonight?] I DON'T THINK I KNOW THE SONG, BUT HOW ABOUT THE FOLLOWING? LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! > LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! > LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! > LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! > LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! > > -- > bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ > > BYE CHRIS/JENNY/JOHNNY/CATSEYE LIST/MIT 404 PAGE/UNIVERSE/ERIS, WHO ARE ALL THE SAME. I BROKE MY CAPS-LOCK IN SACRIFICE TO YOU. MARKUS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:28:45 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [Farewell] Suppertime Murder Farewell CatsEye List... here's a short story I wrote: The Suppertime Murder ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Interesting", Detective Johnny said while observing a small piece of spaghetti in his salad quickly being devoured by a tomato, "what was that piece of spaghetti doing in the salad?". It was quite suspicious indeed... did he find the murder of the spaghetti--the SALAD!-- or was it a false trail? He was never to find out, as before Ms. Jenny could answer, a piece of cheese jumped at him and knocked him unconscious. His head fell into the soya sauce. His body fell off of the chair and a tiger, which just happened to come by, decided to eat it. Who _did_ murder the spaghetti? Was it the salad, or was it Ms. Jenny's secret lover--the carrot? Will Detective Johnny ever find out (oops, he's already dead, never mind that)? Find out in the next exciting SUPPERTIME MURDER! Dinner awaits you! Markus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:34:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Pinyan Subject: [Pearl Jam] Light Years Pearl Jam "Light Years" I've used hammers made out of wood I have played games with pieces and rules I've deciphered tricks at the bar But now you're gone, I haven't figured out why I've come up with riddles, and jokes about war I've figured out numbers and what they're for I've understood feelings, and I've understood words But how could you be taken away? And wherever you've gone, and wherever we might go It don't seem fair -- today just disappeared Your light's reflected now, reflected from afar We were but stones, your light made us stars With heavy breath, awakened regrets Backpages and days alone that could have been spent Together, but we were miles apart Every inch between us becomes light years now No time to be bored or save up on life You've got to spend it all And wherever you've gone, and wherever we might go It don't seem fair -- you seemed to like it here Your light's reflected now, reflected from afar We were but stones, your light made us stars And wherever you've gone, and wherever we might go It don't seem fair -- today just disappeared Your light's reflected now, reflected from afar We were but stones, your light made us stars -- Jeff "japhy" Pinyan japhy@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~japhy/ Are you a Monk? http://www.perlmonks.com/ http://forums.perlguru.com/ Perl Programmer at RiskMetrics Group, Inc. http://www.riskmetrics.com/ Acacia Fraternity, Rensselaer Chapter. Brother #734 ** I need a publisher for my book "Learning Perl's Regular Expressions" ** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:15:10 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Traditional] The Minstrel Boy Greg Velichansky wrote: > [Twa Corbies] [Oh man that brings back memories. You know Jenny's from the Celtic country too, right? She's a Sidhe (to me :) Her family emigrated to Canada when my father changed his name from Prysiaznuk (Ukranian) to Pressey (Irish). I just wish he'd been perceptive enough to see it - but being perceptive ain't his game, he's too busy PROFESSING perception...] The minstrel boy to the war has gone In the ranks of death you will find him. His father's sword he has girded on; His wild harp slung behind him. "Land of song!" sang the warrior bard, "Though all the world betray ye, One sword at least thy rights shall guard, One faithful harp shall praise thee." The minstrel fell, but the foe-man's chains Could not keep his proud soul under. The harp he bore ne'er spoke again, For he tore its chords asunder... And said, "No chains shall sully thee, Thou soul of love and bravery! Thy songs were made for the pure and free, They ne'er shall sound in slavery." -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [AMIGA FOREVER] Ports Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:27:20 +0100 Thus spoke Zarathustra: It sure befits a dead list to know that I have ported my languages Sorted!, Java2K and Smith# to the Amiga, a dead computer, using WinUAE. Its available for downloading at my site. Maybe I'll submit it to aminet just for the fun of it. Now, does anybody have a c++ compiler for the C64 ??? VICE sure is a hell of a lot fun. (GREAT GINA SISTERS! BOMB JACK! BURNIN RUBBER! RAID OVER MOSCOW!) [Speaking of which, isn't GNU cross-plattform ? couldn't this be done with *nix as a host for the Longfilename stuff etc ? And directly compile to .T64? Just where are open-source programmers when you need them...] ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [EVERYBODY LOVES HTML MAIL] Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:36:57 +0100 ESPECIALLY THE VISUALLY IMPAIRED Now, do that with ASCII-ART, boy. For good music, try http://www.digitalnoise.com/archives/archive_displayArchive.php?archiveID=22 9&pos=20 and then "Green Velvet" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 20:04:24 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [More stuff] Miscellaneous Lyrics Any typos are mine and are not actually sung :-) Smashing Pumpkins -- tonight, tonight time is never time at all you can never ever leave without leaving a piece of youth and our lives are forever changed we will never be the same the more you change the less you feel believe, believe in me, believe that life can change, that you're not stuck in vain we're not the same, we're different tonight tonight, so bright tonight and you know you're never sure but you're sure you could be right if you held yourself up the light and the embers never fade in your city by the lake the place where you were born believe, believe in me, believe in the resolute urgency of now and if you believe there's not a chance tonight tonight, so bright tonight we'll crucify the insincere tonight we'll make things right, we'll feel it all tonight we'll find a way to offer up the night tonight the indescribable moments of your life tonight the impossible is possible tonight believe in me as i believe in you, tonight Smashing Pumpkins -- jellybelly welcome to nowhere fast nothing here ever lasts nothing but memories of what never was we're nowhere, we're nowhere, we're nowhere to be nowhere, we're nowhere, we're nowhere to see living makes me sick so sick i wish i'd die down in the belly of the beast i can't lie you're nowhere, you're nowhere, you're nowhere to be nowhere, you're nowhere, you're nowhere to see there's nothing left to do there's nothing left to feel doesn't matter what you want, so to make yourself feel better you make it so you'll never give in to your forevers and live for always and forever, forever, you're forever to be forever, forever, you're forever to me For Jenny... Nirvana -- Rape Me Rape me Rape me, my friend Rape me Rape me again I'm not the only one Hate me Do it and do it again Waste me Rape me, my friend I'm not the only one My favorite inside source I kiss your open sores Appreciate your concern You'll always stink and burn Rape me Rape me Nirvana -- Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle It's so relieving to know that you're leaving As soon as you get paid It's so relaxing to hear that you're asking Wherever you get your way It's so soothing to know that you'll sue me This is starting to sound the same I miss the comfort in being sad In her false witness, we hope you're still with us, To see if they float or drown Our favorite patient, a display of patience, Disease-covered Puget Sound She'll come back as fire to burn all the liars A blanket of ash on the ground I miss the comfort in being sad again for Jenny... Nirvana -- Polly Polly wants a cracker Think I should get off her first Think she wants some water To put out the blowtorch Isn't me, have some seed Let me clip dirty wings Let me take a ride, cut yourself Want some help, please myself Got some rope, have been told Promise you have been true Let me take a ride, cut yourself Want some help, please myself Polly says her back hurts She's just as bored as me She caught me off my guard Amazes me, the will of instinct That's it for now... expect more to come! Markus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 11:26:58 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: [bad ascii art] Star Wars Generated these from a program I wrote way back when Ascii Art was still in style.. I don't think this was in style tho ;) Looks best on a tiny monitor from across the room. Jeff _,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, _,,,,,,, _,,,,,,,,,,,__. _g' .f j. ]L j' `"Q_ "g .g------+p jm---'j' .g #_ j` jM9!9!g. .0, ."t_ `9_. .[ ]c .f jMc .#. j6 jL___,M` _@. .^t_ .!_ .f ]6 j- .#_#. "L j6 .y*". .u-----------!. ]L .[ j. _f "_ ]- jMw_ ."*eeeeeeg. .&. ..!. .f j- .&. _f^``"_ 4.j. j6 `"\,_ .N. .______""_____"""_____.`_______""`"".______""___"""""' ___^""""""""__ "#. .9Lj5 ..4.j'...#..f .# .f .``!w_ jM^` .M. .#g .4M. -#M j' #. j. "g .L .r****,. ]. ]_ ,eeree-*&. .@. `` _. ^. _f j' .fq )_ .L .L____d- _d. .!, .^q_ "@. jg. J..[ j5j, .!. .f ..... .,m". .*, .^q. .)s. _"K_ j' ]. ..... .t .f .Nw_ ."*mveevee*' _X .#f.._d..0..._f _'...]`^``@...`g.L....f ."\,_.. ._jA' ."```` ```^`. `````` .^"``"."``"`' ``^""""""""""""`` ._,. ."..-..pf -L ..#' .+_L ."]# ,'j' .+.j` -'.__..,.,p. _~ #..<..0. .J-.``..._f. .7..#_.. _f. .....-..,`4' ;` ,#j. T' .. ..J....,'.j` .` .."^.,-0.,,,,yMMMMM,. ,-.J...+`.j@ .'.`...' .yMMMMM0M@^=`""g.. .'..J..".'.jH j' .'1` q'^)@@#"^".`"='BNg_...,]_)'...0- .T ...I. j" .'..+,_.'3#MMM0MggCBf....F. j/.+'.{..+ `^~'-^~~""""'"""?'"``'1` .... .y.} `.._-:`_...jf g-. .Lg' ..,..'-....,'. .'. .Y^ .....',].._f ......-f. .-,,.,.-:--&` .`...'..`_J` .~......'#' '..,,.,_]` .L..`..``. .,__. ..,, .. .'M&5,. _./. ./_<-=wa,_. ..... .``.`^ _,em&0". ``'-.,._zd&QBSB##BMMMMMQ#@^u'.~_=.. `. ....'...'.''`..:>'x*"Q9SD@K@N&MM@@0$. .,\"^-... . ....,.'.`.-...`-" Subject: Re: [AMIGA FOREVER] Ports Gerson Kurz wrote: > It sure befits a dead list to know that I have ported my languages Sorted!, > Java2K and Smith# to the Amiga, a dead computer, using WinUAE. Excellent! "...I REMEMBER AMIGA..." Lest we forget the oRiGiNaL development platform of Befunge-93!!! Toss the DICE! Jenny bless Matt Dillon! Lest we forget what "Amiga" means in Spanish! The topic box [AMIGA FOREVER] reminded me that there was once a SMUS song (which I played over and over again in Deluxe Music Construction Set) called "Only Amiga". I did a web search for it, but if it's out there, it's pretty well hidden. I don't know if there were ever real lyrics, but I imagined, based on the melody line, that it went something like this: Only Amiga Can make it happen! Only Amiga Makes, it, happen, yeah! -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:06:48 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [loose ends] not music - almost informative "Attention, attention. This is Surf the listboard computer speaking. It seems the weekend has been redeclared DOUBLE LONG by the Celestial C Compiler What Builds The Object Files of the Universe. Expect DJ Roundhole's All-Weekend Dance Party to last at least until Moonday night! Gonna give all the people without weekend internet access a chance to sell their Braights. Then we'll just have to see what happens on Tuesday." Loose ends have been bugging me. They're not terribly important I'm sure, but what the hell, maybe I can get them to stop bugging me. Someone once asked how the Canadian gov't encourages the waste of water. Well, they do this by testing the lead levels only after the tap has been running for three minutes. So, if you want water with only an "acceptable" amount of lead in it, you have to let your tap run for three minutes. I don't know the flow rate, but you do the math, how many liters go down the drain JUST to "cleanse" the pipes? Pretty minor in the scheme of things, probably, but it just sounds like the wrong approach to the problem if you ask me. Canada has a lot of water, and it's pretty clean (with the exception of the new scare of Walkerton et al - nevermind), but we don't have THAT much, and it's not THAT clean, and people just don't think about where it comes from nor where it goes to nor what happens to it when it gets there... Oh yeah, and Russell wanted to know what November Sierra means besides No Shit. Well, OK, it has an infinite number of possible interpretations, right? But the one that struck me was, as per usual, personal and serendipitous. "November" was the name of a super-villain in a story I wrote once. Well, she wasn't so much a super-villain as simply not a particularly kind person, with the X-men-esque "mutant power" of superhuman strength which waxed and waned with the phase of the moon. She was on the side of the "bad guys" for a while, then she defected to the side of the "good guys", then to the "neutrals", sorta - you know, good vs. evil, it's pretty simplistic. "Sierra" is, of course, the game company which licenses "The Incredible Machine." Put the two together and what do you get. "November Sierra." You do the math. -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [VAX] Quote Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 21:15:40 +0100 "Unix was written on our machines and for our machines many years ago. Today, much of UNIX being done is done on our machines. Ten percent of our VAXs are going for UNIX use. UNIX is a simple language, easy to understand, easy to get started with. It's great for students, great for somewhat casual users, and it's great for interchanging programs between different machines. And so, because of its popularity in these markets, we support it. We have good UNIX on VAX and good UNIX on PDP-11s. It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. They'll want a real system and will end up doing VMS when they get to be serious about programming. With UNIX, if you're looking for something, you can easily and quickly check that small manual and find out that it's not there. With VMS, no matter what you look for -- it's literally a five-foot shelf of documentation -- if you look long enough it's there. That's the difference -- the beauty of UNIX is it's simple; and the beauty of VMS is that it's all there." - Ken Olsen 1984 (President, Chairman and Founder of DEC) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:32:04 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [POLY] BYTE THE KRACKER "markus.kliegl" wrote: > [...] Polly wants a cracker... > [...] LET'S BLOW UP THE TOW TRUCK! [Teeheehee! Do let's! Music's a great way to get the ANGRY out!] "Follow me, Everything is alright. I'll be the one to Tuck you in at night." "If you want to leave I can guarantee, You won't find nobody Else like me." "(You're better off if you don't ask why.)" AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! OH FUCK ME HARDER, MY UNCLE KRACKER! FOLLOW YOURSELF, IT'S A WHOLE LOT FASTER! YOU'RE NOT MY SHEPHERD! YOU'RE NOT MY SAVIOUR! YOU'RE NOT MY GUIDEBOOK! YOU'VE LOST YOUR FLAVOUR! POLY WANNA KRACKER! GONNA BYTE YOUR HEAD OFF! POLY GOTTA KRACKER! * CRUNCH! * ...JUST BIT YOUR HEAD OFF! OH FUCK ME HARDER, MY UNCLE KRACKER! GUARANTEE VOID IN REASON! GO FIND A SLACKER! YOU'RE NOT MY PIPER! YOU'RE NOT MY LEADER! YOU'VE LOST YOUR CREEDENCE! YOU'RE NOT MY FEEDER! POLY WANNA KRACKER! GONNA NIP YOUR HEART OUT! POLY GOTTA KRACKER! * CRUSH! * ...JUST NIPPED YOUR HEART OUT! BOO? THAT'S RUDE! BUT YOUR CELL PHONE IN THE THEATRE? THAT'S JUST THOUGHTLESS! GROW UP! GOD? HE'S NOT AN ENIGMA! HE'S JUST A DUDE, LIKE YOU AND ME - MISTER E! TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW! TELL ME SOMETHING I CAN USE! PUSH THE BUTTON CONNECT THE GODDAMNNED DOTS!!! CHAINSAWS IN UNISON MAKE GREAT MUSIC CHAINSAWS IN UNISON MAKE GREAT MUSIC CHAINSAWS IN UNISON MAKE GREAT MUSIC CHAINSAWS IN UNISON MAKE GREAT MUSIC AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! OH FUCK ME HARDER, MY UNCLE KRACKER! I DON'T NEED ANOTHER LIKE YOU! I'VE GOT MY OWN BACKER! YOU'RE NOT MY MOJO! YOU'RE NOT ABSOLUTION! YOU'VE MONDO LOSSAGE! YOU'RE NO SOLUTION! POLY WANNA KRACKER! GONNA BYTE YOUR DICK OFF! POLY GOTTA KRACKER! * SNAP! * ...JUST BIT YOUR DICK OFF! OH FUCK ME HARDER, MY UNCLE KRACKER! TUCK YOURSELF IN! GODDAMNED BUSHWHACKER! YOU'RE NOT MY WAY OUT! YOU'RE NOT MY MAGIC! I CAN SEE FOR MYSELF, AND YOU'RE FUCKING *TRAGIC*! POLY WANNA KRACKER! GONNA BYTE YOUR SOLES OFF! POLY GOTTA KRACKER! * KRACK! * ...JUST BIT YOUR SOULS OUT! * YUM! * ... Tasty! ...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! !!!FUCK!!! !!!!ME!!!! !!!!!HARDER!!!!! -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:32:21 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Soundgarden] My Wave Yeaa! Take, if you want a slice! ...If you want a piece! ...If it feels alright. Break, if you like the sound! ...If it gets you up! ...If it turns you down! Share, if it makes you sleep ...If it sets you free! ...If it helps you breathe... Don't come over here & piss on my gate! Save it! Just keep it Off my wave! Damn! Mmm. Cry, if you want to cry! ...If it helps you see! ...If it clears your eyes. Hate, if you want to hate! ...If it keeps you safe! ...If it makes you brave! Pray, if you want to pray! ...If you like to kneel! ...If you like to lay! Don't come over here & piss on my gate! Save it! Just keep it Off my wave Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave My wave Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave My wave My wave, My wave, My wave, My wave, My wave! Cry, if you want to cry! ...If it helps you see! ...If it clears your eyes. Hate, if you want to hate! ...If it keeps you safe! ...If it makes you brave! Take, if you want a slice! ...If you want a piece! ...If it feels alright... Don't come over here & piss on my gate! Save it! Just keep it Off my wave! Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave My wave Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave My wave My wave, My wave, My wave, My wave, My wave, My wave, My wave, My wave, My wave! Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave My wave Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave Keep it off my wave Keep it off... my wave... ...my wave... ...my wave... ...my wave... Keep it off... my wave... Keep it off... my wave... Keep it off... my wave... Keep it off! -- SRI SYADASTI SYADAVAKTAVYA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADASTI CAVAKTAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVATAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVAKTAVYASCA says "But Noam, colourless green ideas *do* sleep furiously!" bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:32:50 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Destiny's Child] Survivor Now that you're out of my life, I'm so much better! You thought that I'd be weak without you, But I'm stronger! You thought that I'd be broke without you, But I'm richer! You thought that I'd be sad without you, I laugh harder! You thought I wouldn't grow without you, Now I'm wiser! Thought that I'd be helpless without you, But I'm smarter! You thought that I'd be stressed without you, But I'm chillin'! You thought I wouldn't sell without you, Sold 9 million! I'm a survivor! I'm not gon' give up! I'm not gon' stop! I'm gon' work harder! I'm a survivor! I'm gonna make it! I will survive! Keep on surviving! I'm a survivor! I'm not gon' give up! I'm not gon' stop! I'm gon' work harder! I'm a survivor! I'm gonna make it! I will survive! Keep on surviving! Thought I couldn't breathe without you? I'm inhaling! You thought I couldn't see without you? Perfect vision! You thought I couldn't last without you, But I'm lastin'! You thought that I would die without you, But I'm livin'! Thought that I would fail without you, But I'm on top! Thought it would be over by now, But it won't stop! Thought that I would self-destruct, But I'm still here! Even in my years to come, I'm still gon' be here! I'm a survivor! I'm not gon' give up! I'm not gon' stop! I'm gon' work harder! I'm a survivor! I'm gonna make it! I will survive! Keep on surviving! I'm a survivor! I'm not gon' give up! I'm not gon' stop! I'm gon' work harder! I'm a survivor! I'm gonna make it! I will survive! Keep on surviving! Wishin' you the best! Pray that you are blessed! With much success, no stress, and lots of happiness! (I'm better than that!) I'm not gon' blast you on the radio, (I'm better than that!) I'm not gon' lie to you and your family yo. (I'm better than that!) I'm not gon' hate on you in the magazines, ('m better than that!) I'm not gon' compromise my Christianity[1]. (I'm better than that!) You know I'm not gon' dis you on the Internet, 'Cos my mama taught me better than that! I'm a survivor! I'm not gon' give up! I'm not gon' stop! I'm gon' work harder! I'm a survivor! I'm gonna make it! I will survive! Keep on surviving! I'm a survivor! I'm not gon' give up! I'm not gon' stop! I'm gon' work harder! I'm a survivor! I'm gonna make it! I will survive! Keep on surviving! Oh oh oh oh... After all of the darkness and sadness Soon comes happiness. If I surround myself with positive things, I'll gain prosperity, yeah! I'm a survivor! I'm not gon' give up! I'm not gon' stop! I'm gon' work harder! I'm a survivor! I'm gonna make it! I will survive! Keep on survivin'! [1] accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour... ...for the next five minutes :) -- "I just wanna dance. IS THAT CRIME? Well alright then!" - J-Lo, _Play_ bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:35:32 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Lauryn Hill] Everything is Everything Everything is everything, is everything, is everything; What is meant to be, will be. After winter, must come spring; Change, it comes... eventually. Everything is everything, is everything, is everything; What is meant to be, will be. After winter, must come spring; Change, it comes... eventually. I wrote these words, for everyone who struggles in their youth; Who won't accept deception instead of what is truth. It seems we lose the game before we even start to play! Who made these rules? We're so confused! Easily led astray. Let me tell ya that: Everything is everything, everything is everything. After winter, must come spring. Everything is everything. I philosophy, possibly speak tongues, Beat drum, Abyssinian, street Baptist, Rap this in fine linen, from the beginning; My practice extending across the atlas. I begat this, flippin' in the ghetto on a dirty mattress... You can't match this rapper-actress! More powerful than TWO Cleopatras! Bomb graffiti on the tomb of Nefertiti! MCs ain't ready to take it to the Serengetti. My rhymes is heavy, like the mind of Sister Betty! El Boogie spars with stars and constellations... Then came down for a little conversation. Adjacent to the king, fear no human being! Roll with cherubim to Nassau Coliseum, Now hear this mixture, where hip-hop meets scripture; DEVELOP A NEGATIVE INTO A POSITIVE PICTURE! Everything is everything, is everything, is everything; What is meant to be, will be. After winter, must come spring; Change, it comes... eventually. Sometimes it seems we'll touch that dream, But things come slow or not at all. And the ones on top won't make it stop, So convinced that they might fall. Let's love ourselves then we can't fail To make a better situation. Tomorrow, our seeds will grow... All we need is dedication. Let me tell ya that: Everything is everything, everything is everything. After winter, must come spring. Everything is everything. Everything is everything, is everything, is everything; What is meant to be, will be. After winter, must come spring; Change, it comes... eventually. La la la la, la la la la... -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:44:35 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: [Goodbye] [Befunge] I didn't write this code (thanks Chris :) ">:#,_66*2-,@K=< 1002 yaM -- )ac.bm.eyestac@tsil( tsiL gniliaM eyEstaC ,lleweraF Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:57:51 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: [loose ends] not music - almost informative Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > Someone once asked how the Canadian gov't encourages the waste of > water. Well, they do this by testing the lead levels only after the tap > has been running for three minutes. So, if you want water with only an > "acceptable" amount of lead in it, you have to let your tap run for > three minutes... Well, it depends on whether you're trying to test the water _supply_ system or the water _distribution_ sys34y777&*{__{__{NO CARRIER Sorry, I forgot we're tryin' to have a party here. From memory and with a likely dropping of a verse somewhere, the song that is likely to be the first dance at my wedding in August. Caterwaul, "What I Hear You Can't" Out there I hear sounds I know don't exist for you How come? Out there I hear sounds you can't - how come? Of this I conclude I know much more than I did How come? Out there I hear sounds you can't - how come? Out there I hear sounds like I know what I hear you can't How come? Out pounds, out pounds more than you know - how come? Out there I hear sounds I'm sure of what they are I conclude I know: Out there I hear sounds like I love you How come? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:59:40 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [Caterwaul] Dizzy Delirium As long as I'm on Caterwaul, here's one for Jenny. Dizzy Delirium Here we be and none too soon sweetheart thoughts come to me they're very pretty very very pretty Oh now here you be run into me dizzy spells all around it's very pretty very very pretty Oh come look Here we be and none too soon roundin' up my thoughts for you they're very pretty very very pretty Oh now rub your eyes good and hard pink and gold is what you'll see I'm very dizzy very very dizzy Oh come look Dizzy you and dizzy you Oh in a delirium Oh come back come back to me Oh come back come back to me Sweet askew run into you I'm way too weak to catch my breath I'm very dizzy very very dizzy Here come quick and then you'll see all these things surrounding me they're very pretty very very pretty Oh come look ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:19:06 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke Subject: Re: [AMIGA FOREVER] Ports Gerson Kurz wrote: > > Thus spoke Zarathustra: > > It sure befits a dead list to know that I have ported my languages Sorted!, > Java2K and Smith# to the Amiga, a dead computer, using WinUAE. Its available > for downloading at my site. Maybe I'll submit it to aminet just for the fun > of it. > > Now, does anybody have a c++ compiler for the C64 ??? Would a C++ compiler fit in memory ? I guess you should translate from C++ to C first... > VICE sure is a hell of > a lot fun. (GREAT GINA SISTERS! BOMB JACK! BURNIN RUBBER! RAID OVER MOSCOW!) > > [Speaking of which, isn't GNU cross-plattform ? couldn't this be done with > *nix as a host for the Longfilename stuff etc ? And directly compile to > .T64? Just where are open-source programmers when you need them...] Frederic vdP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:37:25 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Dido] Isobel I thought it was funny, when you Missed the train. When I rang you at home, They said you left yesterday. I thought it was strange When your car was found By the tree in Ennis Where we used to hang around. Dear Isobel, I hope you're well, And what you've done is right. Oh, it's been such hell, I wish you well, I hope you're safe tonight. It's been a long day comin'. And long will it last When it's last day leavin'. I'm helpin' it pass by Lovin' you more. And who he would become? All things he'd have done. Would he have loved you And not let you down? Would he be stronger Than his Father? Don't punish yourself; Leave it well alone. Dear Isobel, I hope you're well, And what you've done is right. Oh it's been such hell, I wish you well, I hope you're safe tonight. 'Sbin a long day comin'. & long will it last When it's last day leaving. I'm helpin' it pass by Lovin' you more. 'Sbin a long day comin'. & long will it last When it's last day leaving. I'm helpin' it pass by Lovin', Lovin' you more. -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:39:56 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [the SELF] (various) [And the all-night dance party runs on...] http://www.isn.net/~goat/goat/music/theSELF-Dreaming.mp3 Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > > [...] Well, they do this by testing the lead levels only after the tap > > has been running for three minutes... > Well, it depends on whether you're trying to test the water _supply_ > system or the water _distribution_ sys34y777&*{__{__{NO CARRIER I should hope the lead comes from the pipes and not the source, but y'know I didn't think to...oops ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H http://www.isn.net/~goat/goat/music/theSELF-Brave.mp3 > Sorry, I forgot we're tryin' to have a party here. [Heh, I bet we looked pretty silly WALKING across the DANCE floor...] http://www.isn.net/~goat/goat/music/theSELF-Morning.mp3 Frédéric van der Plancke wrote: > Gerson Kurz wrote: > > Now, does anybody have a c++ compiler for the C64 ??? > Would a C++ compiler fit in memory ? > I guess you should translate from C++ to C first... [oof! dude... watch your elbows! :) ] http://www.isn.net/~goat/goat/music/theSELF-HooYeah.mp3 -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:54:58 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Failure Mode] (various) http://www.estarcion.com/tinygod/FailureModeHereWeGo.mp3 http://www.estarcion.com/tinygod/FailureModeNarcissusPuked.mp3 http://www.estarcion.com/tinygod/FailureModeRainOnThursday.mp3 -- If I missed any other list contributers who wrote music, my bad. bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:24:49 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Men Without Hats] Pop Goes the World * Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, _Pop Goes the World_ by Men Without Hats! * Puh-puh-puh- Puh-puh-puh- Johnny played GUItar, Jenny played bass; Name of the band was The human race. Everybody, tell me, Have you heard? Pop goes the world! Jenny played KEYboard, Johnny played drum, Called Little Baby and a Big Bonhomme. Everybody, tell me, Have you heard? Pop goes the world! It goes something like this: Johnny and Jenny had a crazy dream: See their pictures in a magazine. Every little boy needs a girl, POP GOES THE WORLD! Jenny and Johnny gettin' smart, it seems: Made more money on a movie screen. Every little nest needs a bird, Pop goes the world! One, two, three and four is five; Everybody here is a friend of mine. Ever happened to the Duke of Earl? Pop goes the world! Six, seven, eight and nine is ten. Send Algunn to see the Doctor (Ben!) Hey, what planet are we on? * The 3rd! * Pop goes the world! Everytime I wonder Where the world went wrong, End up lying on my face Goin' "dingie-dingie-ding-dong"... And everytime I wonder If the world is right, End up in some disco, Dancin' all night! Johnny played GUItar, Jenny played bass. Name of the band is The human race. Everybody tell me, Have you heard? POP GOES THE WORLD! Johnny played GUItar, Jenny played bass, Ain't nobody Couldn't take their place. Everybody tell me, Have you heard? POP GOES THE WORLD... POP GOES THE WORLD, POP GOES THE WORLD! -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:26:19 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Men Without Hats] On Tuesday * Ahh! * On Tuesday, You came in from the storm. On Tuesday, You came and made me warm... On Tuesday. On Tuesday, You made me fly Much higher than before; On Tuesday, You made me cry And made me smile for more, 'Cos, Love is something I adore... On Tuesday. On Tuesday, You saved my life; I was nothing but a war. On Tuesday, You made me high; I was flying on the floor. 'Cos, Love is something I adore... On Tuesday. IT WAS ONLY MAKE-BELIEVE, THEN ALONG CAME TUESDAY... CHANGED EV'RYTHING, ON TUESDAY. On Tuesday, You waved goodbye; You step into the storm. On Tuesday, You saved my life; A smile will keep me warm. On Tuesday, You made me cry Like a child being born. On Tuesday, You made me fly; I'll be flying evermore. 'Cos, Love is something I adore... On Tuesday. IT WAS ONLY MAKE-BELIEVE THEN ALONG CAME TUESDAY... CHANGED EV'RYTHING, ON TUESDAY. * Bah bah bah, bah... * On Tuesday... * Bah bah bah, bah-ahhh! * On Tuesday... ... -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:29:35 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Cat's-Eye] Jack and Jill (1996) [MIDI rendition attached] Jack and Jill Went up the Hill To fetch a pail Of water. Jack fell down And broke his Crown, And Jill came Tumbling after. Nip and Tuck, An Aqueduct They built upon The site. Now Gravity, Both safe and free, Draws water, Day and Night. Hey, hey, hey... Johnny and Jenny Made a pretty penny On the movie Of their life. And Jenny didn't scream When Johnny fulfilled his dream And slit his wrists With a knife. No, indeed, She let him bleed And caught it all On tape. She knew it would mean Another movie scene, And she knew what made the public Go ape. [quieter] Hey, hey, hey. La la la la, La la la la, La, la, la. La la la la, La la la la, La - la. La la la la, La la la la, Lala, la, la. LA, LA, LA, LA, LA! Jack and Jill Went up the Hill To fetch a pail Of water. Jack fell down And broke his Crown, And Jill came Tumbling after. Nip and Tuck, An Aqueduct They built upon The site. Now Gravity, Both safe and free, Draws water, Day, and Night. Hey, hey, hey. -- November Sierra, I wrote this back in '96! bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar -- -- Type: application/x-zip-compressed -- File: Jack_and_Jill.zip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:09:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: [How could we forget...] Being a er, mediocre guitarist I felt the need to include chords for this one. I'm just astonished that I haven't seen it yet. /Brian ------ 867-5309 (JENNY) by Tommy Tutone Transcribed by Brian Davies Comments and corrections to davies@ils.nwu.edu For more of my transcriptions, check out http://www.ils.nwu.edu/~davies/guitar/ Riff: (e) |-----0-------0-------0-----0-----| (B) |---5-------5-------5-----4---4---| (G) |-6-----7-------6-------4-------4-| (D) |---------------------------------| (A) |---------------------------------| (E) |---------------------------------| 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & [Riff Twice] Hey! [F#m] Jenny, [D] Jenny, [A] who can I [B] turn to? [F#m] [D] [A] [B] [F#m] You give me [D] something [A] I can hold [B] on to. [F#m] [D] [A] [B] [F#m] I know you [D] think I'm [A] like the [B] others be[F#m]fore [D] [A] [B] [F#m] Who saw your [D] name and [A] number [B] on the [F#m] wall. [D] [A] [B] [E] Jenny, I [D] got your [A] number; [E] I need to [A] make you [D] mine. [E] Jenny, don't [D] change your [A] number, [F#m] 8 6 [D] 7 - 5 [A] 3 0 [B] 9. [F#m] [D] [A] [B] [F#m] Jenny, [D] Jenny, [A] you're the girl [B] for me. [F#m] [D] [A] [B] [F#m] You don't [D] know me but you [A] make me so [B] happy. [F#m] [D] [A] [B] [F#m] I tried to [D] call you be[A]fore but I [B] lost my [F#m] nerve. [D] [A] [B] [F#m] I tried my i[D]magi[A]nation, but [B] I was dis[F#m]turbed. [D] [A] [B] Chorus I [C#m] got it, I [E] got it, [F#m] I got your [A] number off the [B] wall. [F#m] For a good time, for a [A] good time [B] call. [Riff Twice] Hey! [E] Jenny, don't [D] change your [A] number; [E] I need to [A] make you [D] mine. [E] Jenny, I [D] called your [A] number, [F#m] 8 6 [D] 7 - 5 [A] 3 0 [B] 9. [F#m] [D] [A] [B] [F#m] Jenny, [D] Jenny, [A] who can I [B] turn to? [F#m] [D] [A] [B] For the [F#m] price of a [D] dime I can [A] always [B] turn to [F#m] you. [D] [A] [B] ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:41:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: Re: [AMIGA FOREVER] Ports --- Frédéric van der Plancke wrote: > > > Gerson Kurz wrote: > > > > Thus spoke Zarathustra: > > > > It sure befits a dead list to know that I have > ported my languages Sorted!, > > Java2K and Smith# to the Amiga, a dead computer, > using WinUAE. Its available > > for downloading at my site. Maybe I'll submit it > to aminet just for the fun > > of it. > > > > Now, does anybody have a c++ compiler for the C64 > ??? > > Would a C++ compiler fit in memory ? > I guess you should translate from C++ to C first... I wonder if you can get source for Cfront? > > VICE sure is a hell of > > a lot fun. (GREAT GINA SISTERS! BOMB JACK! BURNIN > RUBBER! RAID OVER MOSCOW!) > > > > [Speaking of which, isn't GNU cross-plattform ? > couldn't this be done with > > *nix as a host for the Longfilename stuff etc ? > And directly compile to > > .T64? Just where are open-source programmers when > you need them...] You might be able to do something with a C compiler from Lunix, but I don't remember if such a beast exists (yes, it's a real project, but it's only a sorta Unix because the native language is 6510 assembler...). Try lng.sourceforge.net (and if there's no luck on the C compiler front you could always convert one of Dennis Ritchie's old compilers from PDP-11 to 6510 xcompile...). /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:00:53 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [lang] [Tsunami] A scripted audio processing tool This isn't precisely language-related, but it's not CLEARLY MAD, either. In reference to lex and yacc, I recently alluded to an audio- processing tool I'm working on, called Tsunami. It's starting to approach a usable state at this time, so I'm looking for interested parties to play with it, suggest features, and find bugs. Internally, Tsunami manages a number of 'tracks', each consisting of a stereo pair of 32-bit waveform samples at 44.1KHz[1]. Track data can be imported from most uncompressed PCM .WAV files (any sample rate, mono or stereo, 8 or 16 bit). Track data is always exported at 16-bit 44.1KHz stereo. A typical fragment of a Tsunami script might look like this: # we will rock you deftrack kick # define a new track called kick import bass_drum_1.wav # import a bass drum sample deftrack snare # define a new track called snare import snare_drum_1.wav # import a snare drum sample deftrack beat # define a new track called beat tempo 110 # tempo is 110 beats per minute at 0b # set the cursor to beat 0 track kick # insert bass drum at cursor at 1b # set the cursor to beat 1 track snare # insert snare drum at cursor at 2b track kick at 2.5b track kick at 3b track snare crop 0b 4b # make the total length 4 beats Obviously, this is a fairly tedious way to program a drum machine; the intended role of this tool is to assist in building up a composition from riffs, loops, found sounds, and the like, with more appropriate tools (musical instruments, samplers, and sequencers) being used for the lower-level manipulations. However, I'm planning to put in extremely low-level synthesis tools as well. Apart from comments delimited by end-of-line, the scripting language is completely whitespace-freeform. Times can, in general, be specified as absolute or relative, and in units of seconds, beats, or samples (e.g. "at 3.2s"). Scalars can be specified as raw numbers or as percentages. The current command list: deftrack # define a new track or continue its definition at # position cursor in current track silence # append or overwrite silence to track tempo # set tempo for purposes of time-in-beats math normalize # scale amplitude to get peaks to a certain level scale # scale amplitude by a fixed factor import # insert a wave file into the current track track # insert another track into the current track stretch # resample the current track to a new length shift # as stretch, but specified as a pitch shift timescale # change the track length while preserving pitch envelope[2] # apply another track as an amplitude envelope modulate[2] # apply another track as a frequency modulator vocoder[2] # apply another track as a vocoder crop # preserve a given portion of a track export # write a track out to a wav file Some of the commands have alternate spellings (e.g. "import", "read", and "wav" are synonymous) and some have multiple parameter forms (e.g. "stretch 5s" stretches to 5 seconds; "stretch -1s" stretches to the current length less one second; "stretch 120%" stretches to 120% of the current length). A minor yet secretly pleasing goal is to support as many different comment delimiters as possible; "*", "#", "$", "@", ";", and "//" all introduce comments that extend to EOL, and "/* ... */" is a comment; a future version will suppport "'", "REM", and "COMMENT". Currently, there aren't any looping or other control constructs in the language; it seems kind of silly to bother, since Tsunami scripts could very easily be produced by a Real Language with those constructs. Of course, it would make it possible to do an audio (instead of textual) 99 Bottles program, but I'd probably have to steal back some of the comment characters for syntactical markers. Low-level synthesis will probably require some sort of parametric track definition (rather than an explicit deftrack for each note on a keyboard, for instance), which will also probably be a fairly major undertaking. I'm aware that there exist other scripted audio-manipulation tools which have been evolving for far longer than Tsunami has; I'm having fun and learning a lot doing it my way, though. If you're interested in playing with Tsunami, please let me know; I'll give you an executable, a manual, and some test scripts. Currently, it is only available for Win32 but at some point in the future I'll factor out some non-open-sourceable portions of the code and make the source available. -Russell B [1] Currently the 32-bit range uses the same unit scaling as a 16-bit sample, so this represents a ridiculous amount of headroom with no increase in precision. Probably I will shift things by 8 bits, providing 8 bits of headroom and effectively 24-bit sample resolution for intermediate processing. [2] Features not yet implemented. ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [CC65][Esoteric Cross-PLattform Development] A C Compiler for the C64 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:15:55 +0100 www.cc65.org/ (or, since the site seems unavailable rite now, www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/commodore/programming/cc65/ ) KEWL! We should define a set of obsolete plattforms to port Esoteric Languages to in order for the L to gain the status "most useless pile of crap". I submit the PC. > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: Brian Connors [mailto:connorbd@yahoo.com] > Gesendet: Montag, 21. Mai 2001 16:42 > An: list@catseye.mb.ca; fvdp@decis.be > Betreff: Re: [AMIGA FOREVER] Ports > > > > --- Fridiric van der Plancke wrote: > > > > > > Gerson Kurz wrote: > > > > > > Thus spoke Zarathustra: > > > > > > It sure befits a dead list to know that I have > > ported my languages Sorted!, > > > Java2K and Smith# to the Amiga, a dead computer, > > using WinUAE. Its available > > > for downloading at my site. Maybe I'll submit it > > to aminet just for the fun > > > of it. > > > > > > Now, does anybody have a c++ compiler for the C64 > > ??? > > > > Would a C++ compiler fit in memory ? > > I guess you should translate from C++ to C first... > > I wonder if you can get source for Cfront? > > > > VICE sure is a hell of > > > a lot fun. (GREAT GINA SISTERS! BOMB JACK! BURNIN > > RUBBER! RAID OVER MOSCOW!) > > > > > > [Speaking of which, isn't GNU cross-plattform ? > > couldn't this be done with > > > *nix as a host for the Longfilename stuff etc ? > > And directly compile to > > > .T64? Just where are open-source programmers when > > you need them...] > > You might be able to do something with a C compiler > from Lunix, but I don't remember if such a beast > exists (yes, it's a real project, but it's only a > sorta Unix because the native language is 6510 > assembler...). Try lng.sourceforge.net (and if there's > no luck on the C compiler front you could always > convert one of Dennis Ritchie's old compilers from > PDP-11 to 6510 xcompile...). > > /Brian > > > ===== > -- > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:46:44 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Rush] Freewill [I messed up my long weekend calculations...I thought Friday was the holiday, turns out it's today (Victoria Day.) This only applies to Canadians I think, unfortunately this means Steve (AFAIK the only other Canadian on the list) might not get a chance to sell a Braight on the list before it shatters into a million rainbows. So this one's for him... including his informal dissertation that will does indeed have degrees of freedom due to the fact that there can be more that one explanation for it as an emergent phenomenon, which I think is pretty elegant. Of course, YOU'RE FREE TO DECIDE OTHERWISE :) ] [I also saw the movie "The Skulls" yesterday, in which the character Chloe has "taught her computer how to paint;" the robot, named "Action Jackson", uses a combination of deterministic and random methods to spray paint on a canvas. At one point she asks, "Who chose for this painting to be the way it is? Was it the computer? Was it me? Or perhaps it was purely an act of Chaos?" Which I thought was pretty good because on the *face* of it, it *seems* to have nothing to do with the rest of the movie :) Check it out sometime...] There are those who think that Life has nothing left to chance, a Host of holy horrors To direct our aimless dance! A planet of playthings, We dance on the strings Of powers we cannot perceive. "The stars aren't aligned!" Or "The gods are malign!" Blame is better to give than receive. You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO DECIDE, YOU STILL HAVE MADE A CHOICE! You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill; I will choose a path that's clear - I will choose freewill. There are those who think that They were dealt a losing hand, the Cards were stacked against them... They weren't born in Lotus-Land. "All preordained!" A prisoner in chains - A victim of venomous fate. Kicked in the face, You can't pray for a place In Heaven's unearthly estate. You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO DECIDE, YOU STILL HAVE MADE A CHOICE! You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill; I will choose a path that's clear - I will choose freewill. Each of us - A cell of awareness - Imperfect and incomplete! Genetic blends With uncertain ends, On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet. You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO DECIDE, YOU STILL HAVE MADE A CHOICE! You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill; I will choose a path that's clear - I will choose freewill. -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ -- HTML Attachment decoded to text by Listar -- -- File: FREEWILL.html kuro5hin.org || The nature of "Free Will" insofar as it exists. [IMG][1][IMG][IMG] [IMG][2]The nature of "Free Will" insofar as it exists. (Op-Ed[3]) [IMG] By Farq Q. Fenderson[4] Fri May 18th, 2001 at 02:22:39 PM AST [IMG][5][IMG] There's been a lot of debate over "free will" lately, and whether or not it exists. I assert that it does, and I will attempt to explain its nature. You won't find me blaming it on randomness and the only magic that I'll call upon is emergent phenomena - which can be fully understood. Within a certain, I think fruitful, definition, I'll show that "free will" does exist. You can decide whether or not you accept my definition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- First, a definition of "free will" must be decided upon. "Uncaused" is too paradoxical to have any meaning, virtue of the fact that it leaves us with simple randomness to look to - and I agree, that isn't very satisfying, nor does it permit those who posess free will to actually have it, since they're really just acting as a channel for the random. I will revise this to "indeterminate cause" - and show why this is a good definition, and why it is indeed "free". By indeterminate, I mean of no determinable cause. Yes, a cause exists for everything that happens, but not all of them are knowable. This is readily demonstrable by the simple fact that you cannot know everything about the universe simply by looking at one piece of it. "Will" itself, I define as what causes us to do what we do. It is important to make this distinction, otherwise I'm "begging the question" by starting with the assumption that free will exists. I'm assuming the notion of "will" as I've defined it is readily agreeable (not necessarily that it's a good term for the definition, just that something of that definition exists - though I hope that it's an acceptable term - that the definition doesn't debase the term.) What I have to show, of course, is that this will that we have is somehow free - and I'll be very careful as to not bebase that term. When a distinct phenomenon occurs from interactions of other phenomena, it isa higher order phenomenon - or "emergent". This "interaction" is a process of some kind. The important part is this: different orders are at a loss of terms to describe what occurs in other orders. For example, describing societial phenomena in terms of particle physics is inappropriate and inaccurate at best, impossible at worst. Effectively, atomic (basic, the given set of phenomena) phenomena cannot describe emergent phenomena without actually going through the process of interacting to cause those other phenomena to emerge - this is important. Our will - or "drives" - must have emerged, somehow*, from what we understandas the material, the physical. This is apparent through the repeated failure of scientists to describe will in purely physical terms - without resorting to some process (which necessarily gives rise to emergent phenomena.) (*perhaps emergent from other emergent phenomena - a higher order still) Given that will is necessarily an emergent phenomenon, then it is of a higherorder of than that of physics, and physical terms are inappropriate to describe it. That's not the point, though. The order wherein the will exists, the lower order of physics (or even biology - which I assume to be an intermediate order, but this is unimportant) does not exist. Things do not literally gravitate together - nordo they react like chemicals do. Yes, metaphor can be used to make these terms relevant - but it cannot be used to bind them to physics. In short, thephysical laws violate scope, and do not hold. This is very important. Since the physical laws are out of scope, they themselves are not identifiably responsible for the the behaviour of the will, when you look down on it from the level of the will. Yes, the will as we know it does emerge from some chain of phenomena that roots in physical laws, but any phenomena that behaves that way could give rise to it. (If you're familiar with "Turing Completeness" you might draw an analogy between this and the fact that any Turing Machine can emulate any other - consider for a moment that the emulated machine has emerged from the host machine.) We do identify the physical laws as the cause for will because it is the onlyset of phenomena we have discovered that could be the root cause of the will - but it's important to acknowledge that a parallel set of phenomena that could give rise to the same emergent phenomena that are used in the creation of the will - or used to emerge the will - would also stand as a candidate for a root cause. I think it can be said, within reason, that higher order phenomena are atomicin their own right - holism, if you will; they are not simply the sum of their parts - but something different altogether. How does this give the will its necessary freedom? I'm hoping the argument iscoming together for you now, and that you already see it. The freedom lies in the fact that there is no necessary identifiable cause for the actions of the will. What I mean is that while there is only one system that has apparently caused it to emerge, an infinity of possibilites exist for what could have actually caused it, and no one set of rules can be identified as the necessary (unique) cause. This, I consider freedom. Not uncaused, but of indeterminate cause. The reason why I am satisfied that this is indeed free will is that it answers the question why did a given person do what they did? with a big fat juicy because that's what that person does. And that's as far back as you cango, with authority - because if you resort to a set of physical (or chemical, biological, social, whatever) laws, you exclude many possibilites and are thereby incapable of giving an authoritative response. It might be interesting to note that one short month ago I did not believe that free will could possibly exist, or that I could ever accept any reasoning behind it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - 2001 Kuro5hin.org Inc. --- Links --- 1 http://www.kuro5hin.org 2 /?op=print;sid=2001/5/18/132239/998 3 /?op=section;section=op-ed 4 /?op=user;tool=info;nick=Farq%20Q.%20Fenderson 5 /?op=search&topic=science ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:49:06 -0700 From: "Daniel." Subject: Re: [bad ascii art] Star Wars >Generated these from a program I wrote way back when Ascii Art was still >in style.. I don't think this was in style tho ;) Looks best on a tiny >monitor from across the room. I tried looking and listening from different distances and I still can't tell what the third and sixth ones are supposed to be. What are they? -Daniel. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:55:40 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Python] Finland Brian Connors wrote: > You might be able to do something with a C compiler > from Lunix, but I don't remember if such a beast > exists [...] Gerson Kurz wrote: > We should define a set of obsolete plattforms to port Esoteric Languages to > in order for the L to gain the status "most useless pile of crap". > I submit the PC. [DJ frowns. Dudes, this is a DANCE FLOOR. Perhaps we could discuss this at length on the terrace... you know, just through that door over there labelled 'misc@esoteric.sange.fi'?] Finland, Finland, Finland, The country where I want to be. Pony trekking or camping, Or just watching TV. Finland, Finland, Finland. It's the country for me. You're so near to Russia, So far from Japan, Quite a long way from Cairo, Lots of miles from Vietnam. Finland, Finland, Finland, The country where I want to be! Eating breakfast or dinner, Or snack lunch in the hall. Finland, Finland, Finland. Finland has it all! You're so sadly neglected And often ignored, A poor second to Belgium, When going abroad. Finland, Finland, Finland, The country where I quite want to be, Your mountains so lofty, Your treetops so tall. Finland, Finland, Finland. Finland has it all. All together, Finland fans! Finland, Finland, Finland, The country where I quite want to be, Your mountains so lofty, Your treetops so tall. Finland, Finland, Finland. Finland has it all. FINLAND HAS IT ALL! -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:03:02 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Python] Traffic Lights Brian Connors wrote: > I'm just astonished that I haven't seen [867-5309 Jenny] yet. [My gosh you're right! I completely forgot about it, thanks! Could have something to do with the fact that I think I've only heard it once or twice in my life! "Slipped mah mind..."] I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights, No matter where they've been. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights, But only when they're green. He likes traffic lights. He likes traffic lights. He likes traffic lights, No matter where they've been. He likes traffic lights. He likes traffic lights. He likes traffic lights, But only when they're green. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. That is what I said. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights, But not when they are red. He likes traffic lights. He likes traffic lights. That is what he said. He likes traffic lights. He likes traffic lights. He likes traffic lights. He likes traffic lights. He likes traffic lights, But not when they are red. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights, Although my name's not Bamber. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. I like traffic lights. I - Oh, God! -- I'm being fined thousands of quatloos here... but it's worth it! bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:25:39 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Williams] Classical Gas NAAHHH-nah. NAAHHH-nah. NAAAAAAAAAAAHHH... Nu-nuddlya-nahh-nooo... [heh... no... different Williams. Although I never knew that until today.] "Daniel." wrote: > I tried looking and listening from different distances and I still > can't tell what the third and sixth ones are supposed to be. What are > they? Jeff Johnston wrote: > .,__. ..,, .. > .'M&5,. _./. ./_<-=wa,_. ..... > .``.`^ _,em&0". ``'-.,._z ..-.....='>0+"`. ... . _%t#)`w. . > ..,`-`^'``.4s.____...._.',_a#0D$tg/ .'.... > ..7. .$a'...'"-._,_g$MN0N#$4` ._. .``=. > .// .Vg'..-.._j#MM0@#Q%rg&, `,`.. `.\ > .'( `B(.__gMMMMM@M@MQh#$gRA_ ..+^. .`. > ... _,2MRBM@0#MMMQM0@0#MpK$Mk, '.. `. > ... ._.,m<$#H#0##N$@M0MMMMM@QM$ABAWHM_ .. > .,.-_"-=`',`_}es!N$AKN0M&M#MMMMMM#0BMKWDMZ). `. . > ....,...`.^~)!7z=ZW3##KM&MMMMMMMMNMMQ#ZpB(-. .. ., > ...'`.`-`+.:4'\"=zWD&00&B0MMMMMMMM0MMBxg%-''_,.. `. > .,.....`..'',<.'xQMXX$EAD#M0@MMMM#MM00Nd~,`... `. > .-.'.'.,.,'.'.""^S)>d&QBSB##BMMMMMQ#@^u'.~_=.. `. > ....'...'.''`..:>'x*"Q9SD@K@N&MM@@0$. .,\"^-... . > ....,.'.`.-...`-" ...-..,.'.''.:-.--('_'3CPP""` .\X. .,.,',' .. > ....-.....:.``:'.:~^:"~` .`", .../. ..... > ....._,,~',,..'.. ..<. ... ...'.[ , > ..'-.-.'.'.. .+'-. ..'...)( ' > ... [The Death Star blowing up? That little flying sphere that Skywalker tries to hit with a lightsabre with a mask over his face? A Balka Ball?] > .%='- i;`' > "%;;. `'`"' > .A;;' ..`.(.. > ??;;; ..;.*". > =';;-..`"`J;. > ...``... ..;. > .`` .. . > '$". . ...'.. > .;4i|'..-...(;'""?' > .-";-`"-mR%;"=;"'. > ."%(8wme=="|4JCw%i%i%. > (1&MMMM((%|(i%(i%%!(' > ;(. .(40MMD%MD&4%?%?e!i%i%!"=. > .2MMMMMMRm&9%i?8$0&A(";="'';;". > "&&i;-. ;%"?%?%?%2&|((((i!i%!J; > (i%!%%!%(`.(!1(!!?!%!!ei. > .((%%!%(.. .=*!%%?%!!!?J' > '(%%%(-. 'wJ!%%??%%1(. > ;;'-' '?w?%%%!!!?' > .(!%%?%!%!". > .;i*!%?!!%` > -(%(!!%!". > .=ii|=;' [Probably a Y-wing or something but I keep thinking it's a banana...] > ..-..,'".- BM\dF. jM@' !MMM.&^'jjjM#*..`. !*m.F. `.....-, > -`.'^-".^. ._'-". `` `"#.# .]MF. _. __-gg.. jMg. ....... > '......._ j#M' jMf jg_jm..-` .Mf_ ja "` .` `^" ,_ 4g."@!. ...,.,,. > ',3&^jCgf ._`"`"'. .` """!. .`^^ ..... .""LTgJf. =/<.,.+ > _@#MMQK##-@"^ .. .'QK_. .!$AGzws > MM&�$#yF. !-M. .gmMM@! ."q. ..K#MD&& > ZM#ZM#$. q4M. ..__,,yg_. ^\. ..M0#$& > A0NWM@. jggp. .,m* .#MMMMM#'.. ' ."M0M@ > BMM$@" !MM#'.. -*' ."QMMMM#`.. ..^$0N > BMMM' .^@#.'` _ ,yy___````. . ``" > MMMP ... j. 1.L .""9*qwwwJ,. ..j# > @@@. . ...P`, .F` .`. ...T > 0T` .P. . F` :"~~- ._.e.,wyyw..,,.... .. > yg. ' _g0M0g. .-'`'^`Q$_ > Mf .jMMMMML .`-"0M# > @. . ."MMMM@^ ."". > f . -. ... > . . ._ ... > . . . .. > .. -' ., .., ..,. > `. . ..*. . _ , .p_ .-,'jb. > _ jgg, -'-+..--!.!!!` !' .~. _0MM/.-.-/@. .yyygggMMMM > M0gyy__________. ^0M' "MM^ ...". `^MMMMMMMM > MMMMMMMMMMMMMM'. .. .`' > . . .. [I have NO idea. Is this that movie poster scene with Luke on the left, Hans on the right, and Princess Leia in the middle? :) ] [Classical Gas attached. Good tune, one of my favourite contemporary instrumentals.] -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar -- -- Type: midi/mid -- File: classicalgas.mid ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:33:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Pinyan Subject: Re: [Williams] Classical Gas On May 21, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole said: >> .,__. ..,, .. >> .'M&5,. _./. ./_<-=wa,_. ..... >> .``.`^ _,em&0". ``'-.,._z> ..-.....='>0+"`. ... . _%t#)`w. . >> ..,`-`^'``.4s.____...._.',_a#0D$tg/ .'.... >> ..7. .$a'...'"-._,_g$MN0N#$4` ._. .``=. >> .// .Vg'..-.._j#MM0@#Q%rg&, `,`.. `.\ >> .'( `B(.__gMMMMM@M@MQh#$gRA_ ..+^. .`. >> ... _,2MRBM@0#MMMQM0@0#MpK$Mk, '.. `. >> ... ._.,m<$#H#0##N$@M0MMMMM@QM$ABAWHM_ .. >> .,.-_"-=`',`_}es!N$AKN0M&M#MMMMMM#0BMKWDMZ). `. . >> ....,...`.^~)!7z=ZW3##KM&MMMMMMMMNMMQ#ZpB(-. .. ., >> ...'`.`-`+.:4'\"=zWD&00&B0MMMMMMMM0MMBxg%-''_,.. `. >> .,.....`..'',<.'xQMXX$EAD#M0@MMMM#MM00Nd~,`... `. >> .-.'.'.,.,'.'.""^S)>d&QBSB##BMMMMMQ#@^u'.~_=.. `. >> ....'...'.''`..:>'x*"Q9SD@K@N&MM@@0$. .,\"^-... . >> ....,.'.`.-...`-"> ...-..,.'.''.:-.--('_'3CPP""` .\X. .,.,',' .. >> ....-.....:.``:'.:~^:"~` .`", .../. ..... >> ....._,,~',,..'.. ..<. ... ...'.[ , >> ..'-.-.'.'.. .+'-. ..'...)( ' >> ... > >[The Death Star blowing up? That little flying sphere that Skywalker >tries to hit with a lightsabre with a mask over his face? A Balka Ball?] My co-worker suggests R2-D2, but I really think it's Darth Vader (on the right) genuflecting, and it's inside the Death Star. The upper left circular area is that window where they watch the rebel fleets later. > >> .%='- i;`' >> "%;;. `'`"' >> .A;;' ..`.(.. >> ??;;; ..;.*". >> =';;-..`"`J;. >> ...``... ..;. >> .`` .. . >> '$". . ...'.. >> .;4i|'..-...(;'""?' >> .-";-`"-mR%;"=;"'. >> ."%(8wme=="|4JCw%i%i%. >> (1&MMMM((%|(i%(i%%!(' >> ;(. .(40MMD%MD&4%?%?e!i%i%!"=. >> .2MMMMMMRm&9%i?8$0&A(";="'';;". >> "&&i;-. ;%"?%?%?%2&|((((i!i%!J; >> (i%!%%!%(`.(!1(!!?!%!!ei. >> .((%%!%(.. .=*!%%?%!!!?J' >> '(%%%(-. 'wJ!%%??%%1(. >> ;;'-' '?w?%%%!!!?' >> .(!%%?%!%!". >> .;i*!%?!!%` >> -(%(!!%!". >> .=ii|=;' > >[Probably a Y-wing or something but I keep thinking it's a banana...] The emporer's vessel (also the one that the rebel fleets capture for access to Endor). >> ..-..,'".- BM\dF. jM@' !MMM.&^'jjjM#*..`. !*m.F. `.....-, >> -`.'^-".^. ._'-". `` `"#.# .]MF. _. __-gg.. jMg. ....... >> '......._ j#M' jMf jg_jm..-` .Mf_ ja "` .` `^" ,_ 4g."@!. ...,.,,. >> ',3&^jCgf ._`"`"'. .` """!. .`^^ ..... .""LTgJf. =/<.,.+ >> _@#MMQK##-@"^ .. .'QK_. .!$AGzws >> MM&�$#yF. !-M. .gmMM@! ."q. ..K#MD&& >> ZM#ZM#$. q4M. ..__,,yg_. ^\. ..M0#$& >> A0NWM@. jggp. .,m* .#MMMMM#'.. ' ."M0M@ >> BMM$@" !MM#'.. -*' ."QMMMM#`.. ..^$0N >> BMMM' .^@#.'` _ ,yy___````. . ``" >> MMMP ... j. 1.L .""9*qwwwJ,. ..j# >> @@@. . ...P`, .F` .`. ...T >> 0T` .P. . F` :"~~- ._.e.,wyyw..,,.... .. >> yg. ' _g0M0g. .-'`'^`Q$_ >> Mf .jMMMMML .`-"0M# >> @. . ."MMMM@^ ."". >> f . -. ... >> . . ._ ... >> . . . .. >> .. -' ., .., ..,. >> `. . ..*. . _ , .p_ .-,'jb. >> _ jgg, -'-+..--!.!!!` !' .~. _0MM/.-.-/@. .yyygggMMMM >> M0gyy__________. ^0M' "MM^ ...". `^MMMMMMMM >> MMMMMMMMMMMMMM'. .. .`' >> . . .. > >[I have NO idea. Is this that movie poster scene with Luke on the left, >Hans on the right, and Princess Leia in the middle? :) ] It's a closeup of Vader's helm. -- Jeff "japhy" Pinyan japhy@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~japhy/ Are you a Monk? http://www.perlmonks.com/ http://forums.perlguru.com/ Perl Programmer at RiskMetrics Group, Inc. http://www.riskmetrics.com/ Acacia Fraternity, Rensselaer Chapter. Brother #734 ** I need a publisher for my book "Learning Perl's Regular Expressions" ** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:38:41 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: [bad ascii art] Star Wars Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > "Daniel." wrote: > > I tried looking and listening from different distances and I still > > can't tell what the third and sixth ones are supposed to be. What are > > they? > Jeff Johnston wrote: > > .,__. ..,, .. > > .'M&5,. _./. ./_<-=wa,_. ..... > > .``.`^ _,em&0". ``'-.,._z > ..-.....='>0+"`. ... . _%t#)`w. . > > ..,`-`^'``.4s.____...._.',_a#0D$tg/ .'.... > > ..7. .$a'...'"-._,_g$MN0N#$4` ._. .``=. > > .// .Vg'..-.._j#MM0@#Q%rg&, `,`.. `.\ > > .'( `B(.__gMMMMM@M@MQh#$gRA_ ..+^. .`. > > ... _,2MRBM@0#MMMQM0@0#MpK$Mk, '.. `. > > ... ._.,m<$#H#0##N$@M0MMMMM@QM$ABAWHM_ .. > > .,.-_"-=`',`_}es!N$AKN0M&M#MMMMMM#0BMKWDMZ). `. . > > ....,...`.^~)!7z=ZW3##KM&MMMMMMMMNMMQ#ZpB(-. .. ., > > ...'`.`-`+.:4'\"=zWD&00&B0MMMMMMMM0MMBxg%-''_,.. `. > > .,.....`..'',<.'xQMXX$EAD#M0@MMMM#MM00Nd~,`... `. > > .-.'.'.,.,'.'.""^S)>d&QBSB##BMMMMMQ#@^u'.~_=.. `. > > ....'...'.''`..:>'x*"Q9SD@K@N&MM@@0$. .,\"^-... . > > ....,.'.`.-...`-" > ...-..,.'.''.:-.--('_'3CPP""` .\X. .,.,',' .. > > ....-.....:.``:'.:~^:"~` .`", .../. ..... > > ....._,,~',,..'.. ..<. ... ...'.[ , > > ..'-.-.'.'.. .+'-. ..'...)( ' > > ... > > [The Death Star blowing up? That little flying sphere that Skywalker > tries to hit with a lightsabre with a mask over his face? A Balka Ball?] The only thing I can see in this one is a profile view of R2D2 in his "reclining" (three-footed travel) posture. The top of the dome is in the upper left, the "eyeball" in the upper right. > > .%='- i;`' > > "%;;. `'`"' > > .A;;' ..`.(.. > > ??;;; ..;.*". > > =';;-..`"`J;. > > ...``... ..;. > > .`` .. . > > '$". . ...'.. > > .;4i|'..-...(;'""?' > > .-";-`"-mR%;"=;"'. > > ."%(8wme=="|4JCw%i%i%. > > (1&MMMM((%|(i%(i%%!(' > > ;(. .(40MMD%MD&4%?%?e!i%i%!"=. > > .2MMMMMMRm&9%i?8$0&A(";="'';;". > > "&&i;-. ;%"?%?%?%2&|((((i!i%!J; > > (i%!%%!%(`.(!1(!!?!%!!ei. > > .((%%!%(.. .=*!%%?%!!!?J' > > '(%%%(-. 'wJ!%%??%%1(. > > ;;'-' '?w?%%%!!!?' > > .(!%%?%!%!". > > .;i*!%?!!%` > > -(%(!!%!". > > .=ii|=;' > > [Probably a Y-wing or something but I keep thinking it's a banana...] The Imperial Shuttle seen in Episode 6. Dorsal fin up, port wing at left, starboard wing at lower right, nose pointing to lower left. > > ..-..,'".- BM\dF. jM@' !MMM.&^'jjjM#*..`. !*m.F. `.....-, > > -`.'^-".^. ._'-". `` `"#.# .]MF. _. __-gg.. jMg. ....... > > '......._ j#M' jMf jg_jm..-` .Mf_ ja "` .` `^" ,_ 4g."@!. ...,.,,. > > ',3&^jCgf ._`"`"'. .` """!. .`^^ ..... .""LTgJf. =/<.,.+ > > _@#MMQK##-@"^ .. .'QK_. .!$AGzws > > MM&�$#yF. !-M. .gmMM@! ."q. ..K#MD&& > > ZM#ZM#$. q4M. ..__,,yg_. ^\. ..M0#$& > > A0NWM@. jggp. .,m* .#MMMMM#'.. ' ."M0M@ > > BMM$@" !MM#'.. -*' ."QMMMM#`.. ..^$0N > > BMMM' .^@#.'` _ ,yy___````. . ``" > > MMMP ... j. 1.L .""9*qwwwJ,. ..j# > > @@@. . ...P`, .F` .`. ...T > > 0T` .P. . F` :"~~- ._.e.,wyyw..,,.... .. > > yg. ' _g0M0g. .-'`'^`Q$_ > > Mf .jMMMMML .`-"0M# > > @. . ."MMMM@^ ."". > > f . -. ... > > . . ._ ... > > . . . .. > > .. -' ., .., ..,. > > `. . ..*. . _ , .p_ .-,'jb. > > _ jgg, -'-+..--!.!!!` !' .~. _0MM/.-.-/@. .yyygggMMMM > > M0gyy__________. ^0M' "MM^ ...". `^MMMMMMMM > > MMMMMMMMMMMMMM'. .. .`' > > . . .. > > [I have NO idea. Is this that movie poster scene with Luke on the left, > Hans on the right, and Princess Leia in the middle? :) ] It's Han, not Hans. This one is an "inverse video" closeup of Vader's helmet/facemask, from eyebrow to chin. The eyes, nose, edges of "respirator" and shiny bits at the lower corners of the respirator are the parts that stand out. -RB ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:36:17 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Cat's-Eye] Smedley the Medley [I'm not sure when I wrote this, but at a guess, say 1997.] -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar -- -- Type: midi/mid -- File: Smedley_the_Medley.mid ------------------------------ From: bobjoned433@ozemail.com.au Subject: We are looking for foreign investors 1603 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:56:43 -0500 -- Unable to decode HTML file!! -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:06:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Pinyan Subject: [Metallica] Damage, Inc. Metallica - Master of Puppets - "Damage Inc." Dealing out the agony within Charging on and no one's gonna give in Living on your knees, conformity Or dying on your feet for honesty Inbred, our bodies work as one Bloody, but never cry submission Following our instinct, not a trend Go against the grain until the end Blood will follow blood Dying time is here (Damage, Incorporated) Slamming through, don't fuck with razorback Step in and you'll feel our hell on your back Blood follows blood and we make sure Life ain't for you and we're the cure Honesty is my only excuse Try to rob us of it but it's no use Steamroller action, crushing all Victim is your name and you shall fall Blood will follow blood Dying time is here (Damage, Incorporated) We chew and spit you out We laugh, you scream and shout All flee, with fear you run You'll know just where we come from (Damage, Incorporated) Damage jackals ripping right through you Sight and smell of this, it gets me goin' Know just how to get just what we want Tear it from your soul in nightly hunt Fuck it all and fucking no regrets Never happy ending on these dark sets All's fair for Damage, Inc., you see Step a little closer if you please Blood will follow blood Dying time is here (Damage, Incorporated) -- Jeff "japhy" Pinyan japhy@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~japhy/ Are you a Monk? http://www.perlmonks.com/ http://forums.perlguru.com/ Perl Programmer at RiskMetrics Group, Inc. http://www.riskmetrics.com/ Acacia Fraternity, Rensselaer Chapter. Brother #734 ** I need a publisher for my book "Learning Perl's Regular Expressions" ** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: [Hot Chocolate] You Sexy Thing More Olga pilferage. I'd post the entire Full Monty soundtrack if I could, but a) I don't like everything on there and b) I can't find a single Donna Summer tab. /Brian ------ You Sexy Thing - Hot Chocolate ------------------------------------------- tabbed by Marcus Wynwood wynwood@webnet.com.au e---------------------------------------|-------------| B---------------------------------------|-------------| G-----------------1-----2----4----------|---2---------| D------2--------2-------------------2---|-------------| A---------------------------------------|-------------| E---------------------------------------|-------------| Count: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 E I belive in miracle's, A E Where are you from, A You Sexy thing? E I believe in miracle's, A E Since you came along, A You Sexy Thing E A Where did you come from baby? E A And how did u know I needed you? How did you know I needed you so badly How did you know I'd give myself so gladly Yesterday I was one of the lonely people Now you're lying next to me Making love to me (chorus) Where did you come from, Angel And how did you know I'd be the one Did you know you're everything I prayed for Did you know every night and day for Yesterday I needed love and satisfaction Now you're lying next to me Givin' it to me (chorus) Kiss me Touch me baby (you sexy thing) I love the way you touch me darlin' (you sexy thing) Ecstasy (you sexy thing) (fade out) ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:37:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: [Donna Summer] Hot Stuff If you haven't seen the Full Monty yet, see it. Watch the dole queue scene (it's the funniest thing in the movie). (Being unemployed myself, this is sort of poignant. Okay, it isn't, really, but...) /Brian ----- Sittin' here eatin' my heart out waitin' Waitin' for some lover to call Dialed about a thousand numbers lately Almost rang the phone off the wall CHORUS: Lookin' for some hot stuff baby this evenin' I need some hot stuff baby tonight I want some hot stuff baby this evenin' Gotta have some hot stuff Gotta have some lovin' tonight I need hot stuff I want some hot stuff I need some hot stuff Lookin' for a lover who needs another Don't want another night on my own Wanna share my love with a warm blooded lover Wanna bring a wild man back home Repeat chorus Sittin' here eatin' my heart out, no reason Won't spend another night on my own I dialed about a hundred numbers baby I'm bound to find somebody home Repeat chorus to fade ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:12:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: party questions We got anything besides virtual Molson's around here to drink, Chris? (Oh, and I think Jenny smiled at me -- should I go over in the corner, get her drunk, and see if I can make out with her for a while?) /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:52:38 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: party questions Brian Connors wrote: > (Oh, and I think Jenny smiled at me -- should I go > over in the corner, get her drunk, and see if I can > make out with her for a while?) What was that Douglas Adams line about a terrible miscalculation of scale? Random link of the day: http://www.best.com/~rictus//post-it/43-satan.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:10:28 +0000 (UTC) From: Daniel Biddle Subject: Re: party questions On Mon, 21 May 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > Brian Connors wrote: > > (Oh, and I think Jenny smiled at me -- should I go > > over in the corner, get her drunk, and see if I can > > make out with her for a while?) > > What was that Douglas Adams line about a terrible miscalculation of > scale? "For thousands more years the mighty ships tore across the empty wastes of space and finally dived screaming on to the first planet they came across -- which happened to be Earth -- where due to a terrible miscalculation of scale the entire battle fleet was accidentally swallowed by a small dog." http://www.cgoakley.demon.co.uk/vlhurgs/ -- Daniel Biddle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:51:20 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: Re: party questions Brian Connors wrote: > We got anything besides virtual Molson's around here > to drink, Chris? Um... well... I think I have some virtual apple cider in the basement. I'll go check. Yup, here it is. Help yourself... There's also some eSotERiC vODkA in the pantry but I definately do not recommend it unless you're willing to put up with an eSotERiC HAngOveR tomorrow morning... Oh, in case you're braver than that, even, I think there's some virtual adrenochrome in the cupboard. ("Is this not a reasonable place to park?" -- Raoul Duke) Don't worry. The virtual cops don't have a thing on us; it's not virtual maryjane. It's just Bear Flower petals :) Does the trick, though... > (Oh, and I think Jenny smiled at me -- should I go > over in the corner, get her drunk, and see if I can > make out with her for a while?) Well hey it's your choice, go for it, if that's what you wanna do... :) "Do you come here often?" Probably won't work. "What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this?" Slight chance. "What's your sign?" Might work. "What's your sign *today*?" Much better chance with that one. "Hey baby, is this guy boring you? Why don't you come with me, I'm from another planet." Definately worth a shot. Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > What was that Douglas Adams line about a terrible miscalculation of > scale? You might want to check out the thing about "Faeries are *yay* big" on http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/duf.html before you make any, uh, undue assumptions regarding scale :) No Tea minus umpteen hours and counting... Ooh, I love this tune! Crank it! http://members.xoom.fr/musique2jeux/musiques/saturn/Take_the_Snow_Train.mid ["Hello, Saturn!"] -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:09:42 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [The Byrds] Turn, Turn, Turn To everything, Turn, Turn, Turn. There is a season, Turn, Turn, Turn... And a time to every purpose, Under heaven. A time to be born, A time to die, A time to plant, A time to reap, A time to kill, A time to heal, A time to laugh... A time to weep. To everything, Turn, Turn, Turn. There is a season, Turn, Turn, Turn... And a time to every purpose, Under heaven. A time to build up, A time to break down, A time to dance, A time to mourn. A time to cast away stones; A time to gather stones... Together. To everything, Turn, Turn, Turn, There is a season, Turn, Turn, Turn.. And a time to every purpose, Under heaven. A time of love, A time of hate, A time of war, A time of peace. A time you may embrace; A time to refrain from embracing. To everything, Turn, Turn, Turn. There is a season, Turn, Turn, Turn... And a time to every purpose, Under heaven. A time to gain, A time to lose, A time to rend, A time to sew, A time for love, A time for hate, A time for peace; I swear. It's not too late. -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:22:11 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [BJ Thomas] Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head Raindrops keep fallin' on my head, And just like the guy whose feet are too big for his bed, Nothin' seems to fit! Those Raindrops are falling on my head, They keep falling... So I just Did me some talkin' to the sun And I said I didn't like the way he got things Done! Sleepin' on the job! Those Raindrops are fallin' on my head, They keep fallin'... But there's one Thing I know: The blues they send to meet me Won't defeat me! It won't be long 'til Happiness steps up to greet me. Raindrops keep falling on my head! But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red! Cryin''s not for me, 'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin', Because I'm free! Nothing's worryin' me. It won't be long 'til Happiness steps up to greet me. Ah-Raindrops keep falling on my head, But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red! Crying's not for me! 'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin', Because I'm free! Nothing's worryin' me. -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 21:27:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Sunfall to-Ennien Subject: [Tommy Tutone] 867-5309 (Jenny) Jenny Jenny, who can I turn to? You gave me somethin' I can hold on to I know you think I'm like the others before who saw your name and number on the wall Jenny, I got your number I need to make you mine Jenny, don't change your number 867 - 5309, (867 - 5309) 867 - 5309, (867 - 5309) Jenny Jenny, you're the girl for me Oh, you don't know me But you make me so happy I tried to call you before But I lost my nerve I tried my imagination But I was disturbed Jenny, I got your number I need to make you mine Jenny, don't change your number 867 - 5309, (867 - 5309) 867 - 5309, (867 - 5309) I've got it (I've got it) I've got it I got your number on the wall I've got it (I've got it) I've got it For a good time (for a good time, ca-all) Hey, Jenny, don't change your number I need to make you mine Jenny, I'll call your number 867 - 5309, (867 - 5309) 867 - 5309, (867 - 5309) Tell me, just who can I turn to? (867 - 5309) For the price of a dime I can always turn to you (867 - 5309) 867 - 5309, (867 - 5309) 867 - 5309, (867 - 5309) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:33:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Pinyan Subject: [Moxy Fruvous] Horseshoes; [Aimee Mann] One Moxy Fruvous - Live Noise - "Horseshoes" Look straight at the coming disaster Realize what you've lost You keep handing out horseshoes Horseshoes have gotta be tossed My sister, Sue, and me were doing stunts with electric trains She said she'd do my dishes, so I handed her the reins And she engineered a collision steered by a hand-eye protege Before my train-set started burning, I heard my sister say Look straight at the coming disaster Realize what you've lost You keep handing out horseshoes Horseshoes have gotta be tossed I dreamed I went to heaven 'cause I told my lover lies When I woke up I went to her and looked her in the eyes I said "help me cry, 'cause I can't deny this union's feeling wrong" Then a flashback to the dream and angels singing songs Look straight at the coming disaster Realize what you've lost You keep handing out horseshoes Horseshoes have gotta be tossed Horseshoes have gotta be tossed Don't push the river -- if you love it, set it free I said "go on and see him, you can still come home to me" And I was satisfied, God was on our side, 'cause we're freer than the birds She sent me a letter; I didn't read it, I already knew the words Look straight at the coming disaster Realize what you've lost You keep handing out horseshoes Horseshoes have gotta be tossed Horseshoes have gotta be tossed Aimee Mann - Magnolia Soundtrack - "One" One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do. Two can be as bad as one, It's the loneliest number since the number one. "No" is the saddest experience you'll ever know. Yes, it's the saddest experience you'll ever know. Because one is the loneliest number that you'll ever do. One is the loneliest number that you'll ever know. It's just no good anymore It's just Since you went away. No good. Now I spend my time Spending Just making rhymes Days Of yesterday. One by one by one. Because one is the loneliest number that you'll ever do. One is the loneliest number that you'll ever know. One is the loneliest number, One is the loneliest number, One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do. One is the loneliest number, much, much worse than two. One is the number Life isn't easy with Divided by two. Two divided. One... One has decided to Bring down the curtain And one thing's for certain, There's nothing to keep them Together. -- Jeff "japhy" Pinyan japhy@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~japhy/ Are you a Monk? http://www.perlmonks.com/ http://forums.perlguru.com/ Perl Programmer at RiskMetrics Group, Inc. http://www.riskmetrics.com/ Acacia Fraternity, Rensselaer Chapter. Brother #734 ** I need a publisher for my book "Learning Perl's Regular Expressions" ** ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Python] PEP 9001 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 06:43:14 +0100 PEP 9001: Asteroid Impact Resistance MOTIVATION Collision of the Earth with a sizeable celestial object could have undesirable consequences for any running Python programs. Although no such occurrence has been reported to date, examination of the code suggests that a likely result would be to cause all running Python interpreters on the same planet as the one experiencing the event to crash. It is considered desirable to take proactive steps to address this problem, rather than waiting for a bug report to be filed. PROPOSAL In any module containing the declaration from __future__ import asteroid_resistance the occurrence of an asteroid impact will cause an AsteroidImpactError to be raised. Programs may then trap this exception and take appropriate corrective action. UNRESOLVED ISSUES Devising a suitable test for this feature would seem to be problematic, since failure of the test could have disastrous consequences. If this feature is implemented, it is recommended that it NOT be tested until this issue can be resolved. (as seen on http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Asteroid+Impact+Resistance+Python&hl=de&lr =&safe=off&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=3B0338E2.A2D48DE8%40my.signature) ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Echte gabbers - Kotze & Brake] Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 06:49:56 +0100 Waar is die bass? hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, kotsen en braken hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, hak hak, beng beng, kotsen en braken Hak hak, beng beng, kotsen en braken braken en kotsen Waar is die bass? Dit is geen hardcore, het ztelt ook niks voor dit is van die muziek, die dus nergens op slaat! Hak hak, beng beng, kotsen en braken braken en kotsen Wat een gezeik Ik ben geen zwabber ik luister naar gabber en dit is de hardcore, zoals het hoort! Hak hak, beng beng, kotsen en braken braken en kotsen Waar is die bass? Dit is geen hardcore, het ztelt ook niks voor dit is van die muziek, die dus nergens op slaat Echte gabbers, die willen alleen maar hakken Happy hardcore is voor alle zwakken sukkels die er bij willen horen maar we zullen ze stuk voor stuk Opsporen! Echte gabbers, die willen alleen maar hakken Happy hardcore is voor alle zwakken sukkels die er bij willen horen maar we zullen ze stuk voor stuk Opsporen! Echte gabbers, die willen alleen maar hakken Happy hardcore is voor alle zwakken sukkels die er bij willen horen maar we zullen ze stuk voor stuk Opsporen! Echte gabbers, die willen alleen maar hakken Happy hardcore is voor alle zwakken sukkels die er bij willen horen maar we zullen ze stuk voor stuk Opsporen! Kotsen! Braken! Kotsen! Braken! Hak hak, beng beng, kotsen en braken braken en kotsen Waar is die bass? Dit is geen hardcore, het ztelt ook niks voor dit is van die muziek, die dus nergens op slaat! Hak hak, beng beng, kotsen en braken braken en kotsen Wat een gezeik Ik ben geen zwabber ik luister naar gabber en dit is de hardcore, zoals het hoort! ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [APHEX TWIN] Come To Daddy Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 06:52:14 +0100 Come To Daddy I want your soul, I will eat your soul. I want your soul, I will eat your soul. I want your soul, I will eat your soul. I want your soul, I will eat your soul. Come to daddy. Come to daddy. Come to daddy. Come to daddy. Come to daddy. Come to daddy. Come to daddy. Come to daddy. I want your soul, I want your soul, I want your soul, Aargh. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:55:02 -0600 (MDT) From: Ben Olmstead Subject: [The Beatles] Being For the Benefit of Mr Kite! For the benefit of Mr. Kite There will be a show tonight on trampoline The Hendersons will all be there Late of Pable Fanques-Fair -- what a scene Over men and horses hoop and garters Lastly through a hogshead of real fire! In this way Mr. K. will challenge the world! The celebrated Mr. K. Performs his feat on Saturday at Bishopsgate The Hendersons will dance and sing As Mr. Kite flys through the ring don't be late Messrs. K. and H. assure the public Their production will be second to none And of course Henry the horse dances the waltz! The band begins at ten to six When Mr. K. performs his tricks without a sound And Mr. H. will demonstrate Ten summersets he'll undertake on solid ground Having been some days in preparation A splendid time is guaranteed for all And tonight Mr. Kite is topping the bill. John Lennon & Paul McCartney -- BEM bem@mad.scientist.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:01:15 -0600 (MDT) From: Ben Olmstead Subject: [KMFDM] Inane Chew it all up - Turn it around Give the meaning a twist - Spit it back out Repulsive - Corrosive - Enticing - Confusing Abusive - Elusive - Provoking - Amusing Mangled and ground - Decomposed and destroyed Whatever was found - We invented the sound Prepared to order - Cooked to perfection According to taste - No dissatisfaction German engineering - Astounding ingenuity Over a decade of - Conceptual continuity KMFDM - A constant intrusion It poisons you blood - You need an infusion Like everything else it's completely inane Profoundly profane and it drives me insane KMFDM - What do you know Don't blow your top now, here we go! KMFDM - What's the deal You're so naive, come on get real! KMFDM - For what your money can buy Leave you angst behind and fly sky-high! KMFDM - Make your choice Celebrate chaos - Get into the noise! KMFDM - Nihilistic and free U.A.I.O.E. for you and me Help us, save us, take us away KMFDM - Make my day KMFDM - What's the story Sex on the flag, split and glory KMFDM - Can't suck hard enough Have a little more - You just love that stuff -- BEM bem@mad.scientist.com Can't sleep, clowns will eat me... ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [EVEN MORE TECHNO HITS] And a bit of eurodance, too. Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:02:43 +0100 APHEX TWIN - Milk Man I wish the milk man would deliver my milk, in the morning I wish the milk man would deliver my milk, when I'm yawning I wish the milk man would deliver my milk, in the morning I wish the milk man would deliver my milk, when I'm yawning I wish the milk man would deliver my milk, in the morning I wish the milk man would deliver my milk, when I'm yawning I wish the milk man would deliver my milk, in the morning I wish the milk man would deliver my milk, when I'm yawning I would like some milk from the milk man's wife's tits I would like some milk from the milk man's wife's tits I would like some milk from the milk man's wife's tits I would like some milk from the milk man's wife's tits I would like some milk from the milk man's wife's tits I would like some milk from the milk man's wife's tits (repeat) KRAFTWERK - Boing Boom Tschak Boing Boom Tschak boing boom tschak ! peng! Music non stop, techno-pop Music non stop, techno-pop boing boom tschak ! peng! FAITHLESS - God Is A DJ This is my church, This is where I heal my hurts ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:00:45 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Men Without Hats] Moonbeam * 1, 2, 3, 4... * You, You were on a moon (* moon *) beam; Me, I was on a star. Gee, Everything was blue- (* blue- *) green; Be... 'Cos everything was far. Me, I was in a moon (* moon *) beam; You, YOU WERE IN A SONG! Gee! Ev'rything was groo- (* groo- *) vy; We. EVERYTHING WAS WRONG. No matter where you are, I can always see that far. You were on a moonbeam Of love... A pretty little moonbeam; It's you I'm thinking of! Hey! I was only tryin' to say, You're a million miles away... I can feel you dancing anyway! You, You were on a moonbeam. And me? I was in a cloud. And everything was groovy. And everything was loud! No matter where you were I could always see that fur! You were on a moon (* moon *) beam Of love; A pretty little moonbeam, Moonbeam of love. A pretty little moonbeam, Shining from above! A pretty little moonbeam, It's you I'm thinking of. A pretty little moonbeam, Moonbeam... Of love. -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:04:04 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: Re: [bad ascii art] Star Wars On Mon, 21 May 2001, Daniel. wrote: > >Generated these from a program I wrote way back when Ascii Art was still > >in style.. I don't think this was in style tho ;) Looks best on a tiny > >monitor from across the room. > > I tried looking and listening from different distances and I still > can't tell what the third and sixth ones are supposed to be. What are > they? > -Daniel. 3) side shot of the top of r2-d2, I'd thought this one turned out the best of any of them, but see #6. 6) closeup of darth vader, best viewed with dark background, best being a relative term. This isn't a very good one anyways. Thanks for looking :) Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:15:19 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: Re: [bad ascii art] Star Wars You are all excellent bad ascii art decipherers! Want the programs? http://www.azstarnet.com/~jeffryj/bmp2txt.zip Have fun :) Jeff On Mon, 21 May 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > > > Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > > "Daniel." wrote: > > > I tried looking and listening from different distances and I still > > > can't tell what the third and sixth ones are supposed to be. What are > > > they? > > Jeff Johnston wrote: > > > .,__. ..,, .. > > > .'M&5,. _./. ./_<-=wa,_. ..... > > > .``.`^ _,em&0". ``'-.,._z > > ..-.....='>0+"`. ... . _%t#)`w. . > > > ..,`-`^'``.4s.____...._.',_a#0D$tg/ .'.... > > > ..7. .$a'...'"-._,_g$MN0N#$4` ._. .``=. > > > .// .Vg'..-.._j#MM0@#Q%rg&, `,`.. `.\ > > > .'( `B(.__gMMMMM@M@MQh#$gRA_ ..+^. .`. > > > ... _,2MRBM@0#MMMQM0@0#MpK$Mk, '.. `. > > > ... ._.,m<$#H#0##N$@M0MMMMM@QM$ABAWHM_ .. > > > .,.-_"-=`',`_}es!N$AKN0M&M#MMMMMM#0BMKWDMZ). `. . > > > ....,...`.^~)!7z=ZW3##KM&MMMMMMMMNMMQ#ZpB(-. .. ., > > > ...'`.`-`+.:4'\"=zWD&00&B0MMMMMMMM0MMBxg%-''_,.. `. > > > .,.....`..'',<.'xQMXX$EAD#M0@MMMM#MM00Nd~,`... `. > > > .-.'.'.,.,'.'.""^S)>d&QBSB##BMMMMMQ#@^u'.~_=.. `. > > > ....'...'.''`..:>'x*"Q9SD@K@N&MM@@0$. .,\"^-... . > > > ....,.'.`.-...`-" > > ...-..,.'.''.:-.--('_'3CPP""` .\X. .,.,',' .. > > > ....-.....:.``:'.:~^:"~` .`", .../. ..... > > > ....._,,~',,..'.. ..<. ... ...'.[ , > > > ..'-.-.'.'.. .+'-. ..'...)( ' > > > ... > > > > [The Death Star blowing up? That little flying sphere that Skywalker > > tries to hit with a lightsabre with a mask over his face? A Balka Ball?] > > The only thing I can see in this one is a profile view of R2D2 in > his "reclining" (three-footed travel) posture. The top of the dome > is in the upper left, the "eyeball" in the upper right. > > > > > .%='- i;`' > > > "%;;. `'`"' > > > .A;;' ..`.(.. > > > ??;;; ..;.*". > > > =';;-..`"`J;. > > > ...``... ..;. > > > .`` .. . > > > '$". . ...'.. > > > .;4i|'..-...(;'""?' > > > .-";-`"-mR%;"=;"'. > > > ."%(8wme=="|4JCw%i%i%. > > > (1&MMMM((%|(i%(i%%!(' > > > ;(. .(40MMD%MD&4%?%?e!i%i%!"=. > > > .2MMMMMMRm&9%i?8$0&A(";="'';;". > > > "&&i;-. ;%"?%?%?%2&|((((i!i%!J; > > > (i%!%%!%(`.(!1(!!?!%!!ei. > > > .((%%!%(.. .=*!%%?%!!!?J' > > > '(%%%(-. 'wJ!%%??%%1(. > > > ;;'-' '?w?%%%!!!?' > > > .(!%%?%!%!". > > > .;i*!%?!!%` > > > -(%(!!%!". > > > .=ii|=;' > > > > [Probably a Y-wing or something but I keep thinking it's a banana...] > > The Imperial Shuttle seen in Episode 6. Dorsal fin up, port wing at > left, > starboard wing at lower right, nose pointing to lower left. > > > > > ..-..,'".- BM\dF. jM@' !MMM.&^'jjjM#*..`. !*m.F. `.....-, > > > -`.'^-".^. ._'-". `` `"#.# .]MF. _. __-gg.. jMg. ....... > > > '......._ j#M' jMf jg_jm..-` .Mf_ ja "` .` `^" ,_ 4g."@!. ...,.,,. > > > ',3&^jCgf ._`"`"'. .` """!. .`^^ ..... .""LTgJf. =/<.,.+ > > > _@#MMQK##-@"^ .. .'QK_. .!$AGzws > > > MM&�$#yF. !-M. .gmMM@! ."q. ..K#MD&& > > > ZM#ZM#$. q4M. ..__,,yg_. ^\. ..M0#$& > > > A0NWM@. jggp. .,m* .#MMMMM#'.. ' ."M0M@ > > > BMM$@" !MM#'.. -*' ."QMMMM#`.. ..^$0N > > > BMMM' .^@#.'` _ ,yy___````. . ``" > > > MMMP ... j. 1.L .""9*qwwwJ,. ..j# > > > @@@. . ...P`, .F` .`. ...T > > > 0T` .P. . F` :"~~- ._.e.,wyyw..,,.... .. > > > yg. ' _g0M0g. .-'`'^`Q$_ > > > Mf .jMMMMML .`-"0M# > > > @. . ."MMMM@^ ."". > > > f . -. ... > > > . . ._ ... > > > . . . .. > > > .. -' ., .., ..,. > > > `. . ..*. . _ , .p_ .-,'jb. > > > _ jgg, -'-+..--!.!!!` !' .~. _0MM/.-.-/@. .yyygggMMMM > > > M0gyy__________. ^0M' "MM^ ...". `^MMMMMMMM > > > MMMMMMMMMMMMMM'. .. .`' > > > . . .. > > > > [I have NO idea. Is this that movie poster scene with Luke on the left, > > Hans on the right, and Princess Leia in the middle? :) ] > > It's Han, not Hans. > > This one is an "inverse video" closeup of Vader's helmet/facemask, > from eyebrow to chin. The eyes, nose, edges of "respirator" and shiny > bits at the lower corners of the respirator are the parts that stand > out. > > -RB > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:21:26 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: [Ben Olmstead] He's alive! How are you doing and welcome back (or does that make sense because I wasn't here when you left :) Jeff On Mon, 21 May 2001, Ben Olmstead wrote: > For the benefit of Mr. Kite > There will be a show tonight on trampoline > The Hendersons will all be there > Late of Pable Fanques-Fair -- what a scene > Over men and horses hoop and garters > Lastly through a hogshead of real fire! > In this way Mr. K. will challenge the world! > The celebrated Mr. K. > Performs his feat on Saturday at Bishopsgate > The Hendersons will dance and sing > As Mr. Kite flys through the ring don't be late > Messrs. K. and H. assure the public > Their production will be second to none > And of course Henry the horse dances the waltz! > The band begins at ten to six > When Mr. K. performs his tricks without a sound > And Mr. H. will demonstrate > Ten summersets he'll undertake on solid ground > Having been some days in preparation > A splendid time is guaranteed for all > And tonight Mr. Kite is topping the bill. > John Lennon & Paul McCartney > > -- > BEM > bem@mad.scientist.com > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:25:02 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Men Without Hats] The Real World Ben Olmstead wrote: > For the benefit of Mr. Kite > There will be a show tonight [...] [Holey Chao...! And where the hell have YOU been, man?!? :) We missed you here for the LONGEST time you know! Yeah, it's me, I just put on this pointy hat to make myself *look taller*... Heheheheheh... you know John took it upon himself to judge the Essies right? Oh well... plenty of time to talk about it later on misc/lang@esoteric.sange.fi... on with the party... which will no doubt continue until the wee hours of the morning... I wanna keep it going at least until Steve wakes up... :) Help yourself to the virtual apple cider...] * Excuse me, sir... ...could you tell me how to get to the REAL world? * * Oh-oh- Oh, WOW! * HO HO, the world is a funny place, And it's calling you names! HEY HEY, the world is a funny place, Heyyy? * Oh- Oh, WOW! * Oh wow, In the real world. Walkin' around, I think I'm falling in love again! Hey, Guardian Angel! MORE LIGHT! We're falling in love, Ohhhhh! * Oh, WOW! * Hey, hey. HO HO, the world is a funny place, And it's calling you names! HEY HEY, the world is a funny place, Heyyy? * Oh, WOW! * Oh wow, In the real world, Look at the sky! Hear! They're calling above, again. Look Mom, an ANGEL! Alright! We're falling in love, Ohhhhh! Deep down In the sea of love, Life is surrounding. You can feel like a dove, and then, Like a million rainbows... Here they come again, Here they come again. They call it falling in love. They call it falling... * Oh, WOW! * In the real world, Lookin' around, I think I'm falling in love, again. In the garden of Angels HO HO, We're falling in love, Ohhhhh! HEY HEY, it's a real world! Look at the ground, and CAN YOU SEE YOUR REFLECTION THERE? Everything is saying, oh: "Here we come again." Here we come again. Hey, Guardian Angel! OPEN YOUR EYES! A LITTLE LOVE WON'T MAKE YOU BLIND! Ahhhhh...! * Oh, WOW! * Oh wow, In the real world, Walking around, I think I'm falling in love, again! Hey, Guardian Angel! MORE LIGHT! We're falling in love! Ohhhhh! HEY HEY it's a REAL world. Walking around, I think I'm falling in love... AGAIN. Hey Guardian Angel! Here we come again, Here we come again. They call it falling in love. Hey? They call it falling in love. Hey? They call it falling in love. Hey? They call it falling in love. Hey? They call it falling in love. Hey? They call it falling in love. Hey? They call it falling in love. Hey? They call it falling in love... Hey? ... * Oh, WOW! * -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:30:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Ben Olmstead Subject: [Me] I Have Returned I have travelled far since last I sat in these halls--but these halls are not the same halls I left. In the east, I was assailed by an enchantress, who wished to enslave me, for she did not wish to care for herself. In the north, my steed perished in the frozen wastes, and I was forced to walk many miles. In the south, I took ill, and lay in feverish delerium for weeks. In the west, I reunited with old friends, some of whom were prospering, some in need of aid. And now I have returned. So: what's happenin'? Ben Olmstead/BEM bem@mad.scientist.com Inertia: Simple. Addictive. Free. http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/games/inertia/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:37:00 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: party questions Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > There's also some eSotERiC vODkA in the pantry but I definately do not > recommend it unless you're willing to put up with an eSotERiC HAngOveR > tomorrow morning... Mine! Here, I've got some virtual single malt scotch in here. It defaults to Talisker, but that's easily overriden. > Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > > What was that Douglas Adams line about a terrible miscalculation of > > scale? > > You might want to check out the thing about "Faeries are *yay* big" on > http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/duf.html before you make any, uh, undue > assumptions regarding scale :) That is so like you, Squarepeg. Handwave away a scale mismatch by introducing a dimensionality mismatch -- and _you're_ the guy who was promoting extra-strong typing a while back! -R ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 22:49:05 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [Rx] K-Y Re:amin Rx is Ogre (ex-Skinny Puppy singer) and Martin Atkins (Invisible Records owner and Pigface mastermind). Clip ammunition verbal salt on the wound the lick of spit frontal insertion through the hole from without within Mister distraction what a heart open valve the kiss of death show the spreadsheet buried fireplace the dailies in Distinct reaction of a large non-cultured slob bring on deficit concoction when a best friend blow out like the wind Simple deduction from the top in pieces took away scheming little mother foam froth the cream on face and chin (chorus) The smell remains the same The smell remains the same The smell remains the same Co-independent wheezing choking on the bone couch scheming diversion hide away inside what cannot hide Pocket bitter sweets overcoated bloated kissing from behind the red hot chocolate burn the meat wring out and leave them dry (chorus) Darkest corner of the house the smell of you the drain is out of order bleaching promises to dust and clean them out Darkest corner etc. (chorus) (unintelligible sample-cut-n-paste frenzy) And the smell remains the same (etc.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 23:49:02 -0600 (MDT) From: Ben Olmstead Subject: [They Might Be Giants] Birdhouse In Your Soul On Tue, 22 May 2001, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > Ben Olmstead wrote: > > For the benefit of Mr. Kite > > There will be a show tonight [...] > > Hey, neat! They match mine! > 'SOK, really. I'm alive. Honest. I swear. Aw, shucks. > [Holey Chao...! And where the hell have YOU been, man?!? :) We missed > you here for the LONGEST time you know! Yeah, it's me, I just put on > this pointy hat to make myself *look taller*... Heheheheheh... you know > John took it upon himself to judge the Essies right? Oh well... plenty > of time to talk about it later on misc/lang@esoteric.sange.fi... on with > the party... which will no doubt continue until the wee hours of the > morning... I wanna keep it going at least until Steve wakes up... :) > Help yourself to the virtual apple cider...] Confoundations on your Bishophood. Thanks, but I brought virtual root beer; hope there's enough for everyone. Alas, I must slip into unconsciousness soon... but first: I'm your only friend I'm not your only friend but I'm a little glowing friend but really I'm not actually your friend, but I am Blue canary in the outlet by the light switch who watches over you make a little birdhouse in your soul Not to put too fine a point on it: say I'm the only bee in your bonnet make a little birdhouse in your soul I have a secret to tell from my electrical well it's a simple message and I'm leaving out the whistles and bells so the room must listen to me filibuster vigilantly My name is blue canary one-word spelled l-i-t-e My story's infinite like the Longines Symphonette it doesn't rest There's a picture opposite me of my primitive ancestry which stood on rocky shores and Kept the beaches shipwreck free Though I respect that a lot I'd be fired if that were my job After killing Jason off and countless screaming argonauts Bluebird of friendliness like guardian angels its always near (and while you're at it leave the nite lite on inside the birdhouse in your soul) -- BEM bem@mad.scientist.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:01:02 -0500 From: Jenny Subject: [All mine! Mine mine MINE!] * REFLECTION * I'll miss you guys! You know that I will. But if you ever need me, I'll be JUST BEYOND THE HILL. The list was my home. This place was my lair. But now it's time to GET LOST. I mean, It's only fair. It's part of me, And I'm part of it... But it's just not that simple. THE WHOLE THING'S A KIT. I love you guys... You know that I do! So if you ever need me, Remember: ANYTHING CAN BE TRUE. But don't go assuming We're not in a fight! I've no time for solipsists Who think Ev'rything's right! There's so much in the world That's needlessly hurtin', SO DON'T LEAVE IT UNQUESTIONED For the Sake of being certain. I found you guys... And I hope you found me. So please! Choose freewill! RO-SHAM-BO DESTINY! I'll still be here, Just harder to see. Just callout my name, Then STOP. And BE. Then if you only LISTEN You'll see my reflection, Cast through the shadows In the Fractal's cross-section. ...And if you want something, Let it go, set it free. It'll come back to you If you're where it wants to be... ...And if you need something, Just ask me. Politely. Then go with the nudge You'll feel oh-so slightly... I'm with you guys You know that I am! So if you're ever confused, Remember: DON'T EAT THE SPAM! Sire....? Eris. SPARC...? Craps. God.....? Dog. Spam....? * MAPS! * -- Vive la revolution de la fee! Vive l'esprit libre! Teeheeheeheehee! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:32:08 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: Re: party questions Party's winding down. I'll see you all in Finland... maybe in a week or two, this is gonna be one helluva hangover, I can just TELL. Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > Here, I've got some virtual single malt scotch in here. It defaults > to Talisker, but that's easily overriden. *Squawk*! "A new pleasure, a new pleasure..." > That is so like you, Squarepeg. Handwave away a scale mismatch by > introducing a dimensionality mismatch -- and _you're_ the guy who > was promoting extra-strong typing a while back! Meh. (That's right, I said "meh." M-E-H, "meh.") Extra-strong typing doesn't seem to work so well for interpersonal relationships. That seems to go double for interspiritual ones. Extra-strong eSotERiC vODkA, on the other hand... Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > Rx is Ogre (ex-Skinny Puppy singer) Skinny Puppy eh? You like "coincidence"? Back in the BBS'in' days of my youth (1992-ish) I knew a user who went by the handle 'Skinny Puppy' - he said it was the name of the band he was in. So I just searched the web and found this on http://www.waste.org/~skumm/Products.html BACK AND FORTH SERIES 2 - CD - 1992 Nettwerk/Capitol/EMI - W2-30078 - Canada First song: Intro (LIVE IN WINNIPEG) Bingo. I do, indeed, live in Winnipeg. :) Gerson Kurz wrote: > "It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run > out of things they can do with UNIX." It's true. Eunuchs *do* have their limitations. :) Ben Olmstead wrote: > 'SOK, really. I'm alive. > Honest. I swear. Aw, shucks. Considering my track record I'd be the last person to blame you for disappearing for months at a time. Hope you had fun :) > Confoundations on your Bishophood. Thanks, but I brought virtual root > beer; hope there's enough for everyone. As long as you don't have to be logged in as root to drink it :) And by the looks of the amount Jenny's slurping down, you don't, I hope she'll leave some from me, I'm going to be dehydrated by the end of this... Thanks. -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:41:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gary P. Thompson II" Subject: [J.S. Bach] Little fugue in G minor (exerpt) Voice 1: Ba Ba Baa Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Da Da Da Da Da Dava Da Da Da Dava Da Dava Da dava davadavadavadavadavadavadava da da dava dava dava Voice 1: Ba Ba Baa Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Da Da Da Da Da Dava Da Da Da Voice 2: Dava dava dava dava da dava dava dava daa dava dava da da dava da Voice 1: ba ba ba dava dava da davadavadavadava dava da ba da ba da dava Voice 2: Dava Da Dava Da dava davadavadavadavadavadavadava da da dava dava Voice 1: Dava Da Dava Da dava davadavadavadavadavadavadava da da dava Voice 2: dava da dava da da da dava da bava da dava da da da da da da da Voice 3: Ba Ba Baa Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Ba Da Da Da Da Da Dava Da Da ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:41:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gary P. Thompson II" Subject: Re: [NO MORE FUCKING ROCK'N'ROLL] Techno Classics Lyrics On Sat, 19 May 2001, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > ANYTHING EXCEPT "NINETY-NINE BOTTLES OF BEER," PLEASE No bottles of beer on the wall, no bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, no bottles of beer on the wall. No bottles of beer on the wall, no bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around, no bottles of beer on the wall. Repeat ad infinitum (or nauseum) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:55:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Daniel Biddle Subject: Re: [NO MORE FUCKING ROCK'N'ROLL] Techno Classics Lyrics On Tue, 22 May 2001, Gary P. Thompson II wrote: > No bottles of beer on the wall, no bottles of beer, > take one down, pass it around, no bottles of beer on the wall. > > No bottles of beer on the wall, no bottles of beer, > take one down, pass it around, no bottles of beer on the wall. > > Repeat ad infinitum (or nauseum) Underflow at line 2 -- Daniel Biddle ------------------------------ From: Steve Mosher Subject: [Tori Amos] Happy Phantom Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:32:33 -0300 (This is one of her best songs, IMO - the piano makes this song really fun to listen to.) Tori Amos - Happy Phantom And if I die today I'll be the HAPPY Phantom And I'll go chasin' the nuns out in the yard And I'll run naked through the streets without my mask on And I will never need umbrellas in the rain I'll wake up in strawberry fields every day And the atrocities of school I can forgive The HAPPY phantom has no right to bitch Oo who the time is getting close Oo who time to be a ghost Oo who every day we're getting closer The sun is getting dim Will we pay for who we been So if I die today I'll be the HAPPY phantom And I'll go wearin' my NAUGHTIES like a jewel They'll be my ticket to the universal opera There's Judy Garland taking Buddha by the hand And then these seven little men get up to dance they say Confucius does his crossword with a pen I'm still the angel to a girl who hates to SIN Oo who the time is getting close Oo who time to be a ghost Oo who every day we're getting closer The sun is getting dim Will I pay for who I been Or will I see you dear and wish I could come back You found a girl that you could TRULY love again Will you still call for me when she falls asleep Or do we soon forget the things we cannot see Oo who the time is getting close Oo who time to be a ghost Oo who every day we're getting closer The sun is getting dim Will I pay for who I been And if I die today And if I die today And if I die today Chasin' the nuns out in the yard -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:49:54 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [REM] The End Of The World As We Know It Steve Mosher wrote: > And if I die today I'll be the HAPPY Phantom [...] That's great, It starts with an earthquake, Birds and snakes, An aeroplane and Lenny Bruce is not afraid. Eye of a hurricane, Listen to yourself churn - World serves its own needs, Dummy serve your own needs. Feed it off an aux speak, Grunt, No, Strength, Ladder start to clatter with fear fight down height. Wire in a fire, Representing seven games, A government for hire And a combat site. Left of west and coming in a hurry With the furies breathing down your neck. Team by team reporters baffled, trumped, tethered, cropped. Look at that low playing! Fine, then. Uh oh, overflow, population, common food, but it'll do. Save yourself, serve yourself. World serves its own needs, Listen to your heart bleed, dummy, With the rapture, And the revered, And the right, Right. You vitriolic, Patriotic, Slam, Fight, Bright light, Feeling pretty psyched. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it... and I feel fine. Six o'clock - TV hour. Don't get caught in foreign towers. Slash and burn, return, listen to yourself churn. Locking in, uniforming, book burning, blood letting. Every motive escalate. Automotive incinerate. Light a candle, light a votive. Step down, step down. Watch your heel crush, crushed, uh-oh, this means no fear cavalier. Renegade steer clear! A tournament, Tournament, A tournament of lies. Offer me solutions, Offer me alternatives, And I decline. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it... and I feel fine. The other night I dreamt of knives, Continental drift divide. Mountains sit in a line, Leonard Bernstein. Leonid Brezhnev, Lenny Bruce and Lester Bangs. Birthday party, cheesecake, jelly bean, boom! You symbiotic, patriotic, slam book neck, right? Right. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine... Fine... (It's time I had some time alone.) -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ From: Steve Mosher Subject: [Tara MacLean] Poor Boy Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:41:32 -0300 Tara MacLean - Poor Boy Poor boy No one on his arm He's got tongue for talent Head off and your feet on You want it Hungry now and begging for my skin You said You said I feel good all over You said You said There's never been another Like me Like me There's nobody like me Baby it's a shame That you can't say the same You wrap me in Take a look Take a lick mmm It's the cure for anything You want my deepest thoughts Want to catch me hot Well, everything's got their going rate You said You said.... -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:56:43 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Subject: [Men Without Hats] The End of the World Matadors, monkeys, A million balloons. As we walk through the sea, To the sand; Knowing full well That we're perfectly tuned. As we skip through our hearts, Hand in hand, Well, Jenny the Older, Will music be heard? Will we all meet again At the End of the World? No sense in fooling, We're covered in dreams. Having too much fun flying To land! Melting waist-high In ten colours of green; We're so small but we feel Oh so grand! Well, Jenny the Older, Will music be heard? Will we all meet again At the End of the World? End of the World? Jenny the Older, Will music be heard? Will we all meet again At the End of the World? The End of the World. * On Tuesday... * The end of the world! * Pop goes the world. * * In the Name of Angels... * * Pop goes the world. * * On Tuesday... * * The End of the World. * * The Real World. * * Pop Goes the World. * * On Tuesday. * * Pop Goes the World. * -- bsr@catseye.mb.ca ... http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:07:54 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [Led Zepplin] Stairway to Heaven [Traditionally the last song of the dance, where I come from; and I see no reason to break from such tradition here. I've listened to it dozens of times before... but before this weekend it never had the meaning it does to me now. So grab the one you love, who- or where- or what-ever it is, and make this one a slow dance to remember.] There's a lady who's sure All that glitters IS gold, And she's buying the stairway to heaven. When she gets there she knows If the stores are all closed, With a WORD she can get what she came for. Ooh, ooh ooh, ooh ooh-ooh ooh, And she's buying the stairway to heaven. There's a sign on the wall, But she wants to be sure. 'Cause you know, sometimes words have two meanings. In a tree by the brook, There's a songbird who sings; Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven. Oooooooooh, 't makes me wonder... Oooooooooh, 't makes me wonder... [quietly] Ohohoh. There's a feeling I get When I look to the west, And my spirit is crying for leaving. In my thoughts I have seen Rings of smoke through the trees! And the voices of those who stand looking. Oooooooooh, 't makes me wonder... Oooooooooh, 't really makes me wonder. And it's whispered that soon, If we all call the tune Then the piper will lead us to reason. And a new day will dawn For those who stand long, And the forests will echo with laughter. Ohohohohohoh... If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, Don't be alarmed, now! It's just a spring clean For the May Queen. Yes, there are two paths you can go by. But in the long run, There's still time to change The road you're on. And it makes me wonder! Ahhhh-ha-hahaha... Your head is hummin' and it won't go, In case you don't know. The piper's calling you to join him. Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow? And did you know Your stairway lies on the whisp'ring wind? Oh-ohhh... And as we wind on down the road, Our shadows taller than our soul, There walks a lady we all know, Who shines bright light, and wants to show How ev'rything still turns to gold, And if you LISTEN VERY HARD The tune will come to you at last! WHEN ALL IS ONE AND ONE IS ALL... TO BE A ROCK, AND NOT A ROLE! ...and she's... ...buy-uy-ing... ...the stair-airway... ...to heaven. -- FIN ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:12:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Pinyan Subject: Re: [Led Zepplin] Stairway to Heaven On May 22, Chris Pressey said: > WHEN ALL IS ONE AND ONE IS ALL... > TO BE A ROCK, AND NOT A ROLE! I'd always thought it was "to be a rock, and not to roll". -- Jeff "japhy" Pinyan japhy@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~japhy/ Are you a Monk? http://www.perlmonks.com/ http://forums.perlguru.com/ Perl Programmer at RiskMetrics Group, Inc. http://www.riskmetrics.com/ Acacia Fraternity, Rensselaer Chapter. Brother #734 ** I need a publisher for my book "Learning Perl's Regular Expressions" ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:38:43 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [catseye continuation] Re: party questions Ignoring the fact that BSR is probably in the throes of an agonizing virtual hangover, I continue babbling... Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > > Rx is Ogre (ex-Skinny Puppy singer) > > So I just searched the web and found this on > http://www.waste.org/~skumm/Products.html > > BACK AND FORTH SERIES 2 - CD - 1992 > Nettwerk/Capitol/EMI - W2-30078 - Canada > First song: > Intro (LIVE IN WINNIPEG) > > Bingo. > > I do, indeed, live in Winnipeg. :) Yup. I've been tempted to find an excuse to allude to that, but "Hey! The band I used to obsess over once played a gig in your home town!" just didn't really seem relevant. They were based in Vancouver for most of their career, though both surviving members are now, I think, in the LA area. (And after an acrimonious band breakup, they're touring together in support of Ogre's new project, and collaborating on new material -- yay!) -RB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:14:19 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: [One more tune!] [New Order] Fine Time -- Jennyisms This bounced, but it has to be mailed, especially for Jenny... >Fine time > >You're much too young- >To be a part of me. >Too young- >To get a hold on me. > >You're much too young- >You're much too young- >You're much too young- >To mess around with me. > >Hey. >You know I've met a lot of cool chicks. >But I've never met a girl with all her own teeth >That's why I love you babe. >That's why we could be- but you're too young, >Too young. > >Hey. >Sophisticated lady. >You know I've met a lot of cool chicks. >But you've got style. >You've got class. >But most of all- >You've got love technique. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Gaughan | In the land of the blind, the Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. | one-eyed man is a heretic. --------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:26:25 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: Fwd: [Catseye List is dead] Bugger Double bugger! Accidently sent this on to Russell... That ruined the whole effect... >Feck. I couldn't post anything for the past few days, and just when I got >a chance to play DJ at the party -- I'd passed out in the toilet after too >many faery smokes (powerful stuff!) -- and when I came to, everybody'd >gone! Aw, shucks! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Gaughan | In the land of the blind, the Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. | one-eyed man is a heretic. --------- In Cork, drinking too much Coke and listening to too much Bjork. -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:44:19 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [Tsunami] A scripted audio processing tool On Mon, 21 May 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > In reference to lex and yacc, I recently alluded to an audio- > processing tool I'm working on, called Tsunami. It's starting to > approach a usable state at this time, so I'm looking for interested > parties to play with it, suggest features, and find bugs. Reminds me of a project we had, mamp (modular audio manipulation program). That one never got very far, we had it difficult to decide the best API for passing samples around the filter network (mempipes vs ospipes vs function arguments). The internal command language was to be Tcl, Scheme or Python. Well, maybe we'll some day have the time to do that... Also check out http://glame.sourceforge.net/ (not our project.) > Internally, Tsunami manages a number of 'tracks', each consisting of > a stereo pair of 32-bit waveform samples at 44.1KHz[1]. Track data Ours had a very basic concept of "bank". A bank is a region of 32-bit samples at unspecified rate. Sample rate is a property of the player unit, i.e. we produce a stream of samples which eventually get to the player and the player gets to decide the rate it plays them at. Mamp has a very dynamic scheme. Filters are instantiated to build networks, and you can pass some data through these networks anytime, then alter the network structure, and pass some more data through the network. This has the advantage that with the help of oscillators (or other 0-to-n filters) you can produce a continuous sample stream, ie use the program as a synthesiser. > I'm aware that there exist other scripted audio-manipulation tools > which have been evolving for far longer than Tsunami has; I'm > having fun and learning a lot doing it my way, though. Yes. And the program seems to be surprisingly well developped. You get my respects. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:15:48 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [NO MORE FUCKING ROCK'N'ROLL] Techno Classics Lyrics On Sat, 19 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote: > You seem to think nobodys listening, but I do. And since I hate rock'n'roll, > I figure I have to post some lyrics to techno classics. I have to add a popular song (three years or so forgotten) which is not very "techno" and absolutely not very "classic": repeat 8 { Boom, boom, boom, boom, and I want you in my room, so we could be together from now until forever. Boom, boom, boom, boom, and I want a double boom, and spend a night together, together in my room. } Here's another one, which is a happy rave classic: Rainbow rainbow love, love, love, love love will set you free, love will set you free Hope that helps. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:47:05 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [Python] Finland On Mon, 21 May 2001, Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole wrote: > Finland, Finland, Finland, > The country where I want to be. > Pony trekking or camping, > Or just watching TV. > Finland, Finland, Finland. > It's the country for me. I hope I'm not supposed to comment on this one. > Finland, Finland, Finland, > The country where I quite want to be, > Your mountains so lofty, > Your treetops so tall. > Finland, Finland, Finland. > Finland has it all. Finland doesn't have mountains. Or maybe it does, but they're quite negligible in height. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:57:07 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [APHEX TWIN] Come To Daddy > Aargh. These were written on the album cover. Kraftwerk, Airwaves: Wenn wellen schwingen, ferne stimmen singen. When airwaves swing, distant voices sing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:58:33 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [bad ascii art] Star Wars On Mon, 21 May 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: > 3) side shot of the top of r2-d2, I'd thought this one > turned out the best of any of them, but see #6. > > 6) closeup of darth vader, best viewed with dark background, best being a > relative term. This isn't a very good one anyways. You should probably have bleeded the differences of original and the ASCII to get a nice dither. Panu ------------------------------ From: Steve Mosher Subject: [lang] Re: [Tsunami] A scripted audio processing tool Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:01:29 -0300 On Mon, 21 May 2001, Russell Bornschlegel pressed some keys and this came out: > If you're interested in playing with Tsunami, please let me know; > I'll give you an executable, a manual, and some test scripts. > Currently, it is only available for Win32 but at some point in the > future I'll factor out some non-open-sourceable portions of the > code and make the source available. I'm interested, but I don't have access to a Win32 machine right now. BTW, I'm reminded of MusicScript - musicscript.sourceforge.net - which I really like the power of. It's not too easy to use - matrix based sequencing is /so/ much easier, but the power of it almost caused me to give up tracking. -- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:36:15 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: Re: [bad ascii art] Star Wars On Wed, 23 May 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Mon, 21 May 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: > > > 3) side shot of the top of r2-d2, I'd thought this one > > turned out the best of any of them, but see #6. > > > > 6) closeup of darth vader, best viewed with dark background, best being a > > relative term. This isn't a very good one anyways. > > You should probably have bleeded the differences of original and the > ASCII to get a nice dither. What do you mean? :) Jeff ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [lang] [ESOGOTSCHI] Most usefull language project ever in an early bet Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:18:15 +0100 ESOGOTSCHI is a new programming language I'm writing. Its main features are: - Binaries available for Win32 and the Commodore C64. - Features a number definition designed to get Chris Pressey mad. - Its more of a talk between you and tamagotchi -er- esogotschi than a regular programming language. Early version that just implements funny quotes & strange numbers available for Win32 & C64 at http://www.p-nand-q.com/esogotschi.htm. Now, does anybody care for a S/390 port ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:30:49 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [lang] Re: [ESOGOTSCHI] Most usefull language project ever in an early Gerson Kurz wrote: > > ESOGOTSCHI is a new programming language I'm writing. Its main features are: > > - Binaries available for Win32 and the Commodore C64. > - Features a number definition designed to get Chris Pressey mad. > - Its more of a talk between you and tamagotchi -er- esogotschi than a > regular programming language. > > Early version that just implements funny quotes & strange numbers available > for Win32 & C64 at http://www.p-nand-q.com/esogotschi.htm. Now, does anybody > care for a S/390 port ? The win32 version crashed on me pretty quick. In response to Esogotschi's query regarding my name, I replied "Russell"; it replied "the louder you scream, the faster we go," so I figured it wanted all uppercase, so entered "RUSSELL". It access-violated some fairly low memory address. In another run, I got it to say: "HEY Russell, (null)" Which isn't really any weirder than the rest of its output, but probably not what was intended. -R ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: AW: [lang] Re: [ESOGOTSCHI] Most usefull language project ever in an e Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:41:24 +0100 Hm. The responses are rand()ed strings. It could be some string is too long for cprintf() i was using because of the C64 ? It doesn't crash on me when I try, but then I might only be getting small strings. The strings are partly taken from Zippy the Pinhead and partly from Gertrude Stein. Did the numbers work ? Try ## or something. > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi > [mailto:lang-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]Im Auftrag von Russell > Bornschlegel > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Mai 2001 19:31 > An: lang@esoteric.sange.fi > Betreff: [lang] Re: [ESOGOTSCHI] Most usefull language project ever in > an early beta phase > > > > > Gerson Kurz wrote: > > > > ESOGOTSCHI is a new programming language I'm writing. Its main > features are: > > > > - Binaries available for Win32 and the Commodore C64. > > - Features a number definition designed to get Chris Pressey mad. > > - Its more of a talk between you and tamagotchi -er- esogotschi than a > > regular programming language. > > > > Early version that just implements funny quotes & strange > numbers available > > for Win32 & C64 at http://www.p-nand-q.com/esogotschi.htm. Now, > does anybody > > care for a S/390 port ? > > The win32 version crashed on me pretty quick. In response to > Esogotschi's query regarding my name, I replied "Russell"; it > replied "the louder you scream, the faster we go," so I figured > it wanted all uppercase, so entered "RUSSELL". It access-violated > some fairly low memory address. > > In another run, I got it to say: > "HEY Russell, (null)" > > Which isn't really any weirder than the rest of its output, but probably > not what was intended. > > -R > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:32:30 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: ...hangover receding... ...colours... shapes.. forming... once again... Oh. Hello, Jell-o! That was a lot quicker than I thought it would be. OK, for the time being, no explicit poetry, no overt discordianism, and no excessive listening to Jenny. In short I'll "behave". In my travels of late I've discovered three interesting languages. These are probably more interesting from a spoken-human-linguistics point of view but could be of interest to anyone thinking of digital-computer-proglangs too, if only to entertain you a bit before you go banging out code... 1. INTERLISH The first language in question I'll call Interlish, although I don't think it has an accepted name (yet.) Many linguists are interested in searching for "one world root language" in the distant past where all of our present-day languages evolved from. I too am interested in "one world language," but I'm not looking for it in the past, I'm looking for it in the future. "Interlish" is my name for what whatever-we're-speaking-now is evolving towards. People who discuss things on the Internet are increasingly using a sort of pidgin which many people still call 'English', but it really doesn't resemble the language of the country called 'England' very much. It's obviously strongly influenced by it, but it also, thanks to Canada, the US, Australia, Japan, etc, happily assimiliates many other terms from many other languages (French, Spanish, Yiddish, and so forth.) Surprisingly Buckminster Fuller even notes this, and I wouldn't ordinarily think of calling him a 'linguist.' On http://www.westnet.com/~crywalt/inventions/invtotal.html he says: "Something very big has been going on in my particular generation's lifetime where all the fundamental conditions of humanity are changing at an ever-accelerating acceleration rate. [...] Only within our last-of-the-twentieth-century time, approximately everybody has acquired a beautiful vocabulary. This did not come from the schooling system but from the radio and TV [...] That the language most commonly used in 1983 is English is unfortunate and untrue. What we call English was not the language of long-ago-vanished Angles and Jutes. It is the most crossbred of all the world-around languages of all the world-around people who on their ever westwardly and mildly northwestwardly colonizing way have historically invaded or populated England. "English" now includes words from all the world's languages and represents an agglomeration of the most frequently used and most easily pronounceable words. [...] We have come now to a completely new moment in the history of humans at which approximately everybody is "in" on both speech and information. [...] Despite a doubling of world population during my lifetime, humanity has at the same time gone from 95 percent illiterate to 60 percent literate." (But read the page, he goes into a LOT more detail than this, I'm trying to keep it short for the sake of brevity here.) As an extra dimension, consider the ramifications of the Internet becoming a true multimedium encompassing not only sound, the traditional carrier of language, but also text, pictures, and video. This makes constructions such as the smiley-faced emoticon ":)" veritable and genuine words in the language I'd call Interlish. 2. E-PRIME I'm not sure I can describe this any better than Robert Anton Wilson does on http://www.rawilson.com/quantum.shtml In short, even if you choose not to speak E-Prime, it might be a good idea to be wary about the word "is". (Even former President Clinton seemed to be aware of this, perhaps in a "slick" way, when he said "It depends on what your definition of 'is' is.") What really gets me on this one are the ramifications of E-Prime on the classic "heirarchical identity" approach to constructing an object model for "object-oriented" programming. It explains both why many people see OO as being "Platonic" or "Aristotlean", and why I prefer intelligent object-delegation to blind, knee-jerk inheritance: "IS-A" can be a nasty, strangling little beast when compared to "BEHAVES-LIKE". 3. WU OK, now this one is "clearly whacko," but I intend to include it here as illustration. I wouldn't "trust" it to be a "real" language, after all it's coming from people who take Merkabahs a tad too seriously, and if they were being really honest and up front they would just post a Wu dictionary and let everyone enjoy it (but no, it looks like they're looking for fools who want to soon part with their money. :) They also seem to neglect the fact that the word "Ah-Ree-Ah-Nah" existed on this planet long before 1995. (For example, take Arianna Huffington, named after the historical "Araidne," whose name in ancient greek apparently means "the holiest one." One *could* conclude from this that Wu has been around for a long time, not really changing significantly for thousands of years :) So hold your grain of salt firmly in the tongue-in-cheek position and check out http://www.ascending-star.com/lightlan.htm I'll try to explain the illustration. Language comprehension occurs during interpretation, not composition, and everyone's interpretation is different. To hold a single, fragile interpretation is probably unrealistic; any given composition could have more than one meaning, if that's what the interpreter decides to impose upon it. In short, every language (including Wu) is part of one universal polyglot (which I won't bother naming, as that would seem somewhat pretentious.) This one universal polyglot necessarily includes English, French, Spanish, Basque, Portuguese, Perl, COBOL, E-Prime, Wu, Lojban, Opus-2, etc ad infinitum, as sub-languages. You might be thinking "How is this a useful concept?" Well as I said I mean for it to be illustrative. Everyone has their own ideolect. You, as a listener, might assume someone is speaking language X while they are actually intending to speak language Y; X and Y might have so many words (/sounds) in common that they are easily confusable with each other. The point would be to be careful about what you get from an interpretation, as, unsurprisingly, not everyone else thinks exactly like you do. Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:41:57 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Re: [ESOGOTSCHI] Most usefull language project ever in an early beta Gerson Kurz wrote: > ESOGOTSCHI is a new programming language I'm writing. This is truly the next step of evolution for esoteric programming languages, they are veritable life forms now... may they take over the planet poste haste! > - Features a number definition designed to get Chris Pressey mad. CLEARLY too late for that :) I actually like the number notation, it's quite fun. > - Its more of a talk between you and tamagotchi -er- esogotschi > than a regular programming language. I forgot to feed mine, and it died! Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: AW: [ESOGOTSCHI] Most usefull language project ever in an early beta Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:52:47 +0100 > Chris Pressey wrote: > > > - Features a number definition designed to get Chris Pressey mad. > > CLEARLY too late for that :) > > I actually like the number notation, it's quite fun. But not complicated enough, as Russell pointed out to me. You could not write fine things like (##,#) because of the syntax; this has now been changed NUMBER = NUMERIC { NUMERIC }. NUM2 = DIGIT | NUMPLC2. NUMPLC2 = "'" DIGIT {DIGIT} . NUMERIC = SHIFT | DIGIT | NUMPLC | NUMUNSD. NUMPLC = "'" (DIGIT|SHIFT) {(DIGIT|SHIFT)} . NUMUNSD = ',' SHIFT = '(' NUM2 ',' NUM2 ')'. DIGIT = '|' | '+' | '#' | '.' | ':'. (sorry russell the def I sent you was wrong, too). You cannot use SHIFT inside SHIFT because of the ambivalent meaning of "," (and, for the same reason, no escape once you decide to use the placement system). Nice numbers like (#.#.#.#.#,:) work now :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:01:22 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Re: AW: [lang] Re: [ESOGOTSCHI] Most usefull language project ever in Gerson Kurz wrote: > Hm. The responses are rand()ed strings. Works pretty well for me so far. OK Gerson, since you seem to be trying to annoy me, and it's not really working, JUST to make you happy, I'm writing a techno dance tune called "ALL YOUR BASS ARE BELONG TO US." Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:14:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: Re: ...hangover receding... --- Chris Pressey wrote: > ...colours... shapes.. forming... once again... > Oh. Hello, Jell-o! > That was a lot quicker than I thought it would be. It's 'cause of the Jell-o, duh. > OK, for the time being, no explicit poetry, no overt > discordianism, and > no excessive listening to Jenny. In short I'll > "behave". Whatever. > In my travels of late I've discovered three > interesting languages. > These are probably more interesting from a > spoken-human-linguistics > point of view but could be of interest to anyone > thinking of > digital-computer-proglangs too, if only to entertain > you a bit before > you go banging out code... > > 1. INTERLISH > > The first language in question I'll call Interlish, > although I don't > think it has an accepted name (yet.) There is a hypothesized language family called Nostratic (see http://www.muw.edu/~rmccalli/NostraticFAQs.html for a FAQ) that combines Indo-European, Semitic, Finno-Ugric, and a couple of others... > Many linguists are interested in searching for "one > world root language" > in the distant past where all of our present-day > languages evolved > from. I too am interested in "one world language," > but I'm not looking > for it in the past, I'm looking for it in the > future. "Interlish" is my > name for what whatever-we're-speaking-now is > evolving towards. I don't know that such a thing is even possible. Language has historically tended to fragment rather than converge. Even now, try having a conversation using the "Englishes" of, say, an ordinary Englishman, a hard-core geek from India, and an American Scientologist (all examples of heavily marked usage). > People who discuss things on the Internet are > increasingly using a sort > of pidgin which many people still call 'English', > but it really doesn't > resemble the language of the country called > 'England' very much. It's > obviously strongly influenced by it, but it also, > thanks to Canada, the > US, Australia, Japan, etc, happily assimiliates many > other terms from > many other languages (French, Spanish, Yiddish, and > so forth.) I wouldn't necessarily call it a pidgin -- the terms 'pidgin' and 'creole' imply the existence of truly separate languages at least on the order of the distances between English and Scots or German and Yiddish. "Internet English" is heavily slanted towards American usage and doesn't seem to have picked up a great deal of outside usage at all. > As an extra dimension, consider the ramifications of > the Internet > becoming a true multimedium encompassing not only > sound, the traditional > carrier of language, but also text, pictures, and > video. This makes > constructions such as the smiley-faced emoticon ":)" > veritable and > genuine words in the language I'd call Interlish. Well, I have just barely managed to avoid saying 'imho' out loud in a conversation on a number of occasions :-) > 2. E-PRIME > > I'm not sure I can describe this any better than > Robert Anton Wilson > does on > > http://www.rawilson.com/quantum.shtml > > In short, even if you choose not to speak E-Prime, > it might be a good > idea to be wary about the word "is". (Even former > President Clinton > seemed to be aware of this, perhaps in a "slick" > way, when he said "It > depends on what your definition of 'is' is.") Always a bit of slopover in the simplest definitions -- that's why it'll be a long time until we create true language comprehension. > What really gets me on this one are the > ramifications of E-Prime on the > classic "heirarchical identity" approach to > constructing an object model > for "object-oriented" programming. It explains both > why many people see > OO as being "Platonic" or "Aristotlean", and why I > prefer intelligent > object-delegation to blind, knee-jerk inheritance: > "IS-A" can be a > nasty, strangling little beast when compared to > "BEHAVES-LIKE". > > 3. WU > > OK, now this one is "clearly whacko," but I intend > to include it here as > illustration. I wouldn't "trust" it to be a "real" > language, after all > it's coming from people who take Merkabahs a tad too > seriously, and if > they were being really honest and up front they > would just post a Wu > dictionary and let everyone enjoy it (but no, it > looks like they're > looking for fools who want to soon part with their > money. :) They also > seem to neglect the fact that the word > "Ah-Ree-Ah-Nah" existed on this > planet long before 1995. (For example, take Arianna > Huffington, named > after the historical "Araidne," whose name in > ancient greek apparently > means "the holiest one." One *could* conclude from > this that Wu has > been around for a long time, not really changing > significantly for > thousands of years :) > > So hold your grain of salt firmly in the > tongue-in-cheek position and > check out > > http://www.ascending-star.com/lightlan.htm > > I'll try to explain the illustration. Language > comprehension occurs > during interpretation, not composition, and > everyone's interpretation is > different. To hold a single, fragile interpretation > is probably > unrealistic; any given composition could have more > than one meaning, if > that's what the interpreter decides to impose upon > it. In short, every > language (including Wu) is part of one universal > polyglot (which I won't > bother naming, as that would seem somewhat > pretentious.) This one > universal polyglot necessarily includes English, > French, Spanish, > Basque, Portuguese, Perl, COBOL, E-Prime, Wu, > Lojban, Opus-2, etc ad > infinitum, as sub-languages. That concept doesn't really make any sense; far more sensible (though wrong if you include computer languages) to say "all languages are isomorphic". Of course, Brainfuck, var'aq, and C++ are all isomorphic as well... > You might be thinking "How is this a useful > concept?" Well as I said I > mean for it to be illustrative. Everyone has their > own ideolect. You, > as a listener, might assume someone is speaking > language X while they > are actually intending to speak language Y; X and Y > might have so many > words (/sounds) in common that they are easily > confusable with each > other. The point would be to be careful about what > you get from an > interpretation, as, unsurprisingly, not everyone > else thinks exactly > like you do. Ah, the kernel of truth behind the strange beast known as deconstructionism. But you can't go too far down Derrida's road without losing sight of the fact that there are in fact baselines of meaning; "being careful" is precisely what you want to do, but you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater and start drowning in metacontextual analysis (i.e. he just wrote that because he's a geek/DWEM/Sexist Pig kind of thinking). (Alan Sokal: my hero? Maybe. Does it matter here?) You mentioned "is". Here's a thought. I have a partially created language that is very similar to Indo-European but lacks a conjugated copula form. What does that do to your sentence structure when there is no such word as "to be" but you don't take the Klingon way out and make all your adjectives into verbs? /Brian /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:33:07 +0000 (UTC) From: Daniel Biddle Subject: [lang] Re: [Tsunami] A scripted audio processing tool On Wed, 23 May 2001, Steve Mosher wrote: > On Mon, 21 May 2001, Russell Bornschlegel pressed some keys and this came out: > > If you're interested in playing with Tsunami, please let me know; > > I'll give you an executable, a manual, and some test scripts. > > Currently, it is only available for Win32 but at some point in the > > future I'll factor out some non-open-sourceable portions of the > > code and make the source available. > > I'm interested, but I don't have access to a Win32 machine right now. > BTW, I'm reminded of MusicScript - musicscript.sourceforge.net - which > I really like the power of. It's not too easy to use - matrix based > sequencing is /so/ much easier, but the power of it almost caused me > to give up tracking. These remind me of the Structured Audio part of MPEG-4: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lazzaro/sa I think it should be possible to convert Tsunami, MusicScript, tracker formats etc. into SAOL. (espra player will include a SAOL decoder at some point, fwiw.) -- Daniel Biddle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:56:28 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [lang] Re: [Tsunami] A scripted audio processing tool Daniel Biddle wrote: > These remind me of the Structured Audio part of MPEG-4: > > http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~lazzaro/sa > > I think it should be possible to convert Tsunami, MusicScript, tracker > formats etc. into SAOL. Ah, interesting. Since my SO is in MPEG4 hell right now (I saw the acronym SAOL on some doc on her laptop in the last two weeks, but didn't know what it meant), I may have to investigate. -RB ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Windows 2000] This box will autodestruct in 5 seconds Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 18:34:16 +0100 Make new friends with this invaluable piece of knowledge: Windows 2000 includes a feature that lets you crash the OS simply by holding the right CTRL key and pressing the "Scroll Lock" key twice. After creating a REG_DWORD:1 in HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\i8042prt\Parameters\CrashOnCtrlScroll reboot your system. Then hold the right CTRL key and press the "Scroll Lock" key twice. Windows 2000 will react with a nice MANUALLY_INITIATED_CRASH (0xE2) blue-screen... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:08:19 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Re: [Windows 2000] This box will autodestruct in 5 seconds Gerson Kurz wrote: > Make new friends with this invaluable piece of knowledge: Windows 2000 > includes a feature that lets you crash the OS simply by holding the right > CTRL key and pressing the "Scroll Lock" key twice. [...] > Windows 2000 will react with a nice MANUALLY_INITIATED_CRASH (0xE2) > blue-screen... LOL! See? THIS is why I cooled off on ESO (the OS.) Who needs it when you've already got Windows 2000 and OS/2? They've already got all the messed-up features we want, if only you look hard enough :) Hm, side note. Two people sent me responses to my "hangover receding" post that were sent only to me and not to misc. Unlike list@catseye, misc doesn't yet put itself in the 'reply-to' field, so I dunno if they were meant to be posted to the list or not. (Out of habit, I almost replied only to the poster once or twice too) I dropped a line to Panu. In the meantime I can use 'reply-to-all' in my mailer and then remove the sender's address. Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. "It is pitch dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue."-Ambrose Bierce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:23:03 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: [Windows 2000] This box will autodestruct in 5 seconds Chris Pressey wrote: > "It is pitch dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue."-Ambrose Bierce Now wait a minute... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:26:40 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] rough sketch of my latest esolang I am working on a new esoteric language... It is called VERSION. VERSION is not a virtual machine. It is a sinful machine. Whereas many machines give their registers names (like AX, BX etc,) or numbers (R0, R1, etc,) VERSION registers are assigned colours. To support this smoothly, VERSION sources are in HTML format, with tags to dictate the colour information. Instructions can hierarchically contain other instructions, specified with
    tags. (
      tags might be used for non-deterministic execution.) There are no jumps, instead program flow generally just proceeds forward and wraps around back to the top, at the end. The machine uses a regular expression to determine which instructions to ignore. The program "halts" when it gets an RE which tells it to ignore every instruction. The arithmetical primitives consist of Crystal Balls and Magic Wands. These are depicted by "objets d'ASCII-art" 0 and 1 respectively. Any resemblance to 'zero' and 'one', living or dead, is merely coincidental. More later... Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. "No matter where you go, there you are." - Ambrose Bierce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:04:33 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: [lang] Re: rough sketch of my latest esolang On Thu, 24 May 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > > There are no jumps, instead program flow generally just proceeds > forward and wraps around back to the top, at the end. The machine uses > a regular expression to determine which instructions to ignore. The > program "halts" when it gets an RE which tells it to ignore every > instruction. I'm using this SMITH/Muriel type looping process in a current project as well, but I'm not coming out with a new language. I don't want to spoil the surprise (read: I dunno how hard it will be to finish this monster ;), but it will loop thru the code instead of using jump's. Oh, I hope I can finish it.. :) Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 01:59:54 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: misc linguistics OK, the following assorted things have come somewhat to light... thanks mainly to Russell... Interlish is of course an abstraction, there's almost no point in trying to "define" it, certainly not "authoritatively", it's more like a theoretical avenue at which world languages could quite possibly converge at some future point in time. And it's not "taught," certainly not the same way the education system attempts to "teach" English etc; it's just "picked up" through osmosis, by living amidst the media. It's continually constructed and reconstructed by those who are willing to evolve their language on a global stage. What fascinates me about Interlish-as-we're-getting-there-currently are phrases such as "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US." This seems radically funny and surprisingly meaningful to a speaker of Interlish, mildly offensive and nonsensical to a speaker of Queen's English, and presumably neither funny nor offensive to a speaker of Japanese. Would there be an equivalent phrase, mistranslated into Japanese, which would strike a Japanese speaker as comparably humourous? I don't know but it would be interesting to find out. The word "is" is something to be wary of, but not *paranoid* of, of course. The problem isn't the word "is" so much as scoping it. If you say "A is B" with no qualifiers whatsoever, you don't know if it's supposed to be a strict, permanent, atemporal, global relationship, or what. It's much safer to scope with something like "Say A is B, then..." or "A is B when..." or even "A is probably B" and so forth. "Is" seems to be implicit at many points in each sentence. Maybe "every" point - it is an assertion of identity, after all, and presumably everything asserts some identity to some extent. You can say "the fire is burning" or "the fire burns," "the sky is blue" or "the blue sky", etc. As such, the explicit use of "is" is at least interesting. Brian Connors wrote: > Whatever. Whatever. > > "Interlish" is my > > name for what whatever-we're-speaking-now is > > evolving towards. > I don't know that such a thing is even possible. I don't either, but I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt. > Language has historically tended to fragment rather > than converge. Trends have been wrong before. Look at how mass-produced international (global) trade, a fairly new phenomenon, is creating a demand for common intercultural business language. Look at how the human genome is starting to converge into a kind of mulatto instead of diverging to fill niches. > Even now, try having a conversation > using the "Englishes" of, say, an ordinary Englishman, > a hard-core geek from India, and an American > Scientologist (all examples of heavily marked usage). If they're having a conversation about basketball I don't see why they couldn't communicate. > > People who discuss things on the Internet are > > increasingly using a sort > > of pidgin which many people still call 'English', > I wouldn't necessarily call it a pidgin Nor would I, that's why I said "a *sort of* pidgin" > "Internet English" is heavily slanted towards > American usage Did you read Bucky's article? It's "American English" that has picked up a great deal of "non-English" terms. The introduction of the Internet is only accelerating this process, not hampering it. Plus I suspect you're basing that observation on a somewhat biased sample. Lots of "pseudo-english" is thrown together on IRC, European mailing lists etc. > > http://www.rawilson.com/quantum.shtml > > In short, even if you choose not to speak E-Prime, > > it might be a good > > idea to be wary about the word "is". [...] > Always a bit of slopover in the simplest definitions > -- that's why it'll be a long time until we create > true language comprehension. What's your idea of "true language comprehension"? By any reasonable definition I can think of right now, it's either impossible, or has already been achieved by some people. > > In short, every > > language (including Wu) is part of one universal > > polyglot > That concept doesn't really make any sense; Why not? Please be more specific, I'd be interested to know. > far more > sensible (though wrong if you include computer > languages) to say "all languages are isomorphic". > Of course, Brainfuck, var'aq, and C++ are all > isomorphic as well... Why's it "wrong" to say that Lojban and Perl are isomorphic? > > You, > > as a listener, might assume someone is speaking > > language X while they > > are actually intending to speak language Y; X and Y > > might have so many > > words (/sounds) in common that they are easily > > confusable with each > > other. > Ah, the kernel of truth behind the strange beast known > as deconstructionism. But you can't go too far down > Derrida's road without losing sight of the fact that > there are in fact baselines of meaning; Which are what? Pretty much entirely subjective if you ask me; it's the real world which has objective meaning, not our descriptions of it. > "being careful" is precisely what you want to do, "Being careful" is probably good advice in most situations, regardless, yeah :) > but you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater > and start drowning in metacontextual analysis (i.e. he > just wrote that because he's a geek/DWEM/Sexist Pig > kind of thinking). Well, that's "name-calling" and not "metacontextual analysis," isn't it? I'm assuming that by "throwing out the baby" you mean "discarding meaning entirely," and while I wouldn't recommend this as a long-term mode of operation, I don't see the danger in doing it momentarily. It's arguable that the universe has no meaning except what we assign to it. > (Alan Sokal: my hero? Maybe. Does it matter here?) I'm not of the opinion that who-your-hero-is matters here, no. > You mentioned "is". Here's a thought. I have a > partially created language that is very similar to > Indo-European but lacks a conjugated copula form. What > does that do to your sentence structure when there is > no such word as "to be" but you don't take the Klingon > way out and make all your adjectives into verbs? OK, I'm guessing you skipped http://www.rawilson.com/quantum.shtml as well. You don't need an explicit verb "to be" in order to construct meaningful sentences. These three sentences ought to provide ample evidence of that fact. Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 02:09:43 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] Re: rough sketch of my latest esolang Jeff Johnston wrote: > On Thu, 24 May 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > > There are no jumps, instead program flow generally just proceeds > > forward and wraps around back to the top, at the end. > I'm using this SMITH/Muriel type looping process in a current project as > well, but I'm not coming out with a new language. Well, as pointed out, VERSION's method of paying attention to some instructions and skipping over others is a bit more like INTERCAL than SMITH. However now that you mention it I'm going to want to put self-modification in VERSION, too, but probably in a different way. While SMITH can do nothing but create more instructions, perhaps a VERSION program should not be able to do anything except *delete* its own instructions :) Yet another way to halt a program, remove all of its instructions... > I don't want to spoil > the surprise (read: I dunno how hard it will be to finish this monster ;), > but it will loop thru the code instead of using jump's. Oh, I hope I can > finish it.. :) Good luck :) If it survives the 'thought experiment' stage it's almost certainly implementable. Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:37:40 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [bad ascii art] Star Wars On Wed, 23 May 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: > > You should probably have bleeded the differences of original and the > > ASCII to get a nice dither. > > What do you mean? :) Er... when you dither pictures, you have a choice between three fundamentally different schemes: (1) select-best, where every pixel (or in the case of ASCII, every character) is independently selected to be the nearest one to the intensity / color values of the original; (2) pattern-dither, where the color of a destination pixel is any one of the nearest colors available, weighed stochastically by the original value's proximity to those colors; and (3) bleed-dither, where the difference between the value of the original pixel and destination pixel gets "bleeded" to the surrounding pixels, so that no color is "lost", just changing place a little. The third option would go nicely for character-dither, too: if you don't care about the forms of the characters, only their intensity (how much background/foreground color they have), you can propagate the error between the original and dest character-area intensity to adjacent characters. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:15:31 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: misc linguistics On Fri, 25 May 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > phrases such as "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US." This seems radically > funny and surprisingly meaningful to a speaker of Interlish, mildly I'd like to turn this into an argument in favor of Japanese: even though the sentence contains two "Japanisms", it's totally intelligible. This points out that there are many English meaning units (such as the plural) which don't really carry any information. (OK, this is of course not a really valid argument: every language is like this.) If it were totally Japanese in structure, it would go something like this: "All-of (honor)-base we-to belonging-is." > offensive and nonsensical to a speaker of Queen's English, and > presumably neither funny nor offensive to a speaker of Japanese. Would > there be an equivalent phrase, mistranslated into Japanese, which would > strike a Japanese speaker as comparably humourous? I don't know but it > would be interesting to find out. Of course. Most of these funny things are caused by the fact that words of approximately the same meaning connect differently in different languages. For example, "are belong" might be because they think that belong is an adjective (which it, in Japanese, is IIRC), or because from the Japanese point of view English contains a lot of redundant copulas anyway - in Japanese, adjectives already carry the copula: there is no word "red", just the word "is red". One way to get funny sentences when translating from English to Japanese is to use honorifics in an inconsistent way. And you can't avoid using them, so you actually have to understand the situation to be able to make them from scratch. > The word "is" is something to be wary of, but not *paranoid* of, of > course. The problem isn't the word "is" so much as scoping it. If you Not only that. There are many "types" of being: similarity, equality, identity, and subclassing, for example. Panu ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [YAOPP] For those who miss Perl in Python Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:49:01 +0100 Yet Another Obfuscated PI Program for those, who miss Perl in Python. The algorithm is from the INTERCAL Tarpit. import string def pi(x): _ = [0] * 10000 a = '@!&~#;ABCDE?FGHIJK \nL_[999L_[998L(_)L],L==L_[Lwhile L\nL'\ '\tLreturn string.joinL.append(strL99L.insertLfor i in L\''\ ':\n\t\t\texec(_[2]+\'L\\n\'%(_[1][1:]))\n\t\telLif L LL' b = """ *Grange(r,len(_)):BCC;1~;2~;3~=b[i-r~'defKf%d(_,x=%d):\\n\\ t'%(i,x),'f%d'%iBCCJ;1][0]#'-HreturnK%sIJ;1][0]#'*H%sIse:;3 ]=b[i-r]BCC;i]=eval(;3])B$*A@8]&:;?77]&BCA;?70]&:;?71]&BC!7 ]F(1,'.')BCD(!7~'')$-!6]0$-;!5] -1]*10+(!9]*@6]&)""" c = """ c,a={},a.split('L') for i in range(256): c[chr(i)]=chr(i) for i in range(1,len(a)): c[a[0][i-1]]=a[i] b=string.join(map(lambda x,_=c:_[x],list(b)),'').split('$') r=len(_)-len(b);c=b[0][1:]; exec(c)""" exec(c) return _[9969](_) print pi(20) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:05:23 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: test -nt- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:43:58 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: Re: test -nt- So I'm not the only person who's found the list's gone dead all of a sudden. I'm bogged down with work, what's everybody else's excuse? K. -- Keith Gaughan Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. All your .sig are belong to us! ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: WG: test -nt- Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:27:22 +0100 I have had some depressing contact with activex on IE. ActiveX (COM,OLE,you - marketing droids - name it) is about as bad a technology as 16-Bit OS/2 was in 1993. Possibly, worse. If anyone cares, I can tell you how you can asynchronously callback Javascript (yuk!) code from an ActiveX control on a website. You only need to implement one additional interface and call about half a dozen IUnknowns and you're already there. And, I'm trying to understand how to properly handle serial device signals in my virtual com-port driver. (I have yet to get a 16-bit legacy app speak with a 32-bit vb app-grotesque via a simulated com-port). And, the Win2K DDK sucks. Recompile a driver with it, and it will not load any longer under NT - you do not need to change a single line of code, all the DDK does is link to an unresolved external on NT. Great. M$ has outdone themselves once again. But hey we could spark a discussion about why java sucks so deeply. I have to teach a trainee java and I tell him all the time that java sucks and he says me he likes AWT because it looks nice. Duh. This could quite possibly lead to a scene from BRAINDEAD being reenacted by me in our office, you know. Reason #1: the class String is declared final. Nuff said. Bonus point: the existence of the concept "final class" in itself (is enough a reason to completely prohibit the use of java in any other way than as a source for ridicule). Reason #2: Sourcecode needs to be named like the public class it exports. Reasons #3 .. # 0x0011e27c72bc5a59 omitted because of high blood pressure risk. Go ahead, fill in reasons # 0x0011e27c72bc5a5a (DEC 5034098732849753) .. #MAXINT64 Gerson > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi > [mailto:misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]Im Auftrag von Keith Gaughan > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. Mai 2001 18:44 > An: misc@esoteric.sange.fi > Betreff: Re: test -nt- > > > So I'm not the only person who's found the list's gone dead all > of a sudden. I'm bogged down with work, what's everybody else's > excuse? > > K. > -- > Keith Gaughan > Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. > > All your .sig are belong to us! > > > ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [While everyone else is busy doing big-$$$ business stuff] Here are ju Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:12:33 +0100 http://sourceforge.net/projects/save/, the Sin and Vice Enumerator - A PalmOS application to store and quantify spiritual and ethical transgressions entered by the user. http://surfraw.sourceforge.net, Shell Users' Revolutionary Front Rage Against the Web http://mahalo.sourceforge.net/, see for yourself. http://opp.sourceforge.net/, Opensource poetry: Poetry about opensource, and perhaps some opensource poems. And, I might add, a bad misuse of the one and only real OPP (www.p-nand-q.com/opp.htm) http://sourceforge.net/projects/christiangame/ - This project was created to show that a good open source Christian game can be created. As of yet no plans exist, which is another goal of this project, to design the game! http://sourceforge.net/projects/familybrew/ - "The goal of this project is to implement the Java programming language in such a way as to create an easy to use, plugin expandable, Family Tree and History Archival application." sik! http://epsat.sourceforge.net/ - eleet personal standart aptitude test http://sourceforge.net/projects/snakeskin/ The Snake Skin Bean Breaker converts Python syntax into readable Java syntax. With a high potential of runtime or compile-time deviances, the resultant code is assumed to be broken. [SURE-TO-GET-ME-ANGRY-CANDIDATE] http://sourceforge.net/projects/modbf/ - A brainf*ck module for the Apache Webserver. And another esoteric language http://www.aplusdev.org/. Distribution "-5" is the current release. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:51:35 +0300 (EEST) From: Heikki Kallasjoki Subject: Re: [While everyone else is busy doing big-$$$ business stuff] Here On 30.05.01, at 21:12, Gerson Kurz wrote with subject '[While everyone else...': > http://sourceforge.net/projects/modbf/ - A brainf*ck module for the Apache > Webserver. Ho-hum. Reminds me of my plans for 'modbef'.. it'd have been wonderful to be able to build dynamic content to pages like this: --- yaddayadda, body text, and then +\:1 v 1:\1_ < |!-2_v#-\#_2\2>->:#51# - |# @ feb> and more text --- (that example source is my fibonacchi-numbers-with-recursion-test) Never actually began to implement that, as the apache module API seemed so disgusting. I'm too lazy to learn something like that :p I wish I could say that http://glfunge98.sourceforge.net/ is another interesting project, but unfortunately I haven't been concentrating on that enough.. it's a befunge93/funge98-interpreter, which aims to be the first one to support nice OpenGL-based effects showing the playfield. Currently the nice gfx are non-existant, but it's still quite nice funge interpreter, has possibly some useful quirks too, like the ability to enter befunge one-liners on the command line (useful when you are constructing a complex command line and sed or awk is just too limited). The version that's on sourceforge is a lot more broken than the current one (http://colin.pp.htv.fi/tmp/GLfunge98-current.tar.gz), so users beware. Oh-uh. Can't remember my point anymore. Oh, now I remember. It was: someone nice person could implement 'mod_befunge' for apache, please. Or should I take modbf and integrate it with my glfunge98-befunge-core and do it myself? -- fizban at iki dot fi - PGP-key: http://colin.pp.htv.fi/pgp-key.asc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:24:34 +0300 (EEST) From: Esoteric languages community Subject: Re: test -nt- On Wed, 30 May 2001, Keith Gaughan wrote: > So I'm not the only person who's found the list's gone dead all > of a sudden. I'm bogged down with work, what's everybody else's > excuse? Prometheus-camps. If I didn't tell you all already, these are summer camps for teenagers, most of whom are 14 -- 15 years old, not bound to any ideology. The point of these camps is to make friends, discuss such subjects as racism, human relationships, sex, dating, society, future plans, responsibility, world views etc. They're run almost totally by volunteer work, and currently there are approx. 750 teenagers on 52 camps, with a steady 10% increase per year. This is quite a lot in a land of only five million inhabitants, I'd say. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:51:32 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: testing NT On Wed, 30 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote: > I have had some depressing contact with activex on IE. ActiveX > (COM,OLE,you - marketing droids - name it) is about as bad a technology as > 16-Bit OS/2 was in 1993. Possibly, worse. If anyone cares, I can tell you I've had to make some ActiveX dll's to link a proprietary authentication library to ASP so that it can be used from the scripts. I don't know what I'd have done differently for ActiveX / COM itself (well, actually many things, but not fundamentally different), but what really irritated me is how M$ makes you reduplicate your metadata at least twice. You need a C++ header for your implementor class, as well as the source code - this is normal; then, you need a header for the interface class (why can't you use the implementation class as the interface?) _and_ an IDL definition (somewhat M$-specific, not usable for anything else) of the interface. As for using ActiveX components, M$'s own interfaces are IMO very badly designed. That's what makes you call a kazillion IUnknowns before you get a reference to anything sensible. And the choice of C++ (which they seem not to be able to use properly) as a development base is plain stupid. The only place where ActiveX components work nicely are scripting languages where the language makes your bookkeeping for you. But the standard is so complicated that even these automagic systems sometimes fail and there's little you can do when M$'s systems fail. Otherwise I'd say .so with dlopen() is a better system, but there is no standard way to query the exported symbols from an .so or export interfaces in a machine-readable format, so actually there is no Unix equivalent for ActiveX at all. Which might be good, components are better handled on source level anyway. (Have you read the "speed comparisons" for DCOM pass-by-value vs DCOM pass-by-reference? Ouch.) > how you can asynchronously callback Javascript (yuk!) code from an ActiveX > control on a website. You only need to implement one additional interface > and call about half a dozen IUnknowns and you're already there. I might be interested, but make it very concise. > And, the Win2K DDK sucks. Recompile a driver with it, and it will not load > any longer under NT - you do not need to change a single line of code, all > the DDK does is link to an unresolved external on NT. Great. M$ has outdone > themselves once again. The admirable property of these featureful IDE's (visual studio etc) is that they do things automatically, and they do them automatically wrong. There's always some flag (named like "preserve idioms in the project") which you have to put on to make your program compile. Then you just go ahead and try all combinations of flags and other parameters. And of course there is no way to set them any other time than when you're creating a new project, otherwise you wouldn't have to purge your project every time and start a new one, copying your sources from somewhere else and see if it compiles with _these_ flags. > But hey we could spark a discussion about why java sucks so deeply. I have > to teach a trainee java and I tell him all the time that java sucks and he Java core is OK, except that Java's type system is not even worth mentioning, let alone using. I'm not going to comment java compilers or libraries, they're a different issue and they _do_ suck deeply, IMO. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:55:54 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [While] Here are just SOME of the most usefull SOURCEFORGE On Wed, 30 May 2001, Heikki Kallasjoki wrote: > On 30.05.01, at 21:12, Gerson Kurz wrote with subject '[While everyone else...': > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/modbf/ - A brainf*ck module for the Apache > > Webserver. By the way, I do like this project. When (if?) the author implements POST parameter handling, I'll recommend this as a primary web development technology to my friends. > Never actually began to implement that, as the apache module API seemed so > disgusting. I'm too lazy to learn something like that :p This is another thing, modbf demonstrates beautifully the apache module API. Which seems quite clean and nice to me. > Oh-uh. Can't remember my point anymore. Oh, now I remember. It was: > someone nice person could implement 'mod_befunge' for apache, please. Or > should I take modbf and integrate it with my glfunge98-befunge-core and do > it myself? Yes, you should. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:05:39 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: Re: [While everyone else is busy doing big-$$$ business stuff] Here On Wed, 30 May 2001, Heikki Kallasjoki wrote: > On 30.05.01, at 21:12, Gerson Kurz wrote with subject '[While everyone else...': > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/modbf/ - A brainf*ck module for the Apache > > Webserver. > > Ho-hum. Reminds me of my plans for 'modbef'.. it'd have been wonderful to > be able to build dynamic content to pages like this: > --- > yaddayadda, body text, and then > v>+\:1 v 1:\1_ < > |!-2_v#- <. >\#_2\2>->:#51# - |# > @ > feb> > and more text > --- > (that example source is my fibonacchi-numbers-with-recursion-test) > > Never actually began to implement that, as the apache module API seemed so > disgusting. I'm too lazy to learn something like that :p It's not that disgusting, it's just not documented all too well :-) #1 for worst documentation is porting 1.3 modules to 2.0 #2 is the Apache API in general Here are some sites I found, though (many after the development of mod_bf, cause they aren't linked to anywhere): http://www.topology.org/linux/apache.html http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/developer/modules.html http://dev.apache.org/ http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/misc/API.html http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.0/developer/ http://www.swen.uwaterloo.ca/~rwgregor/746G_A1.html http://dev.apache.org/apidoc/ I have some more copies of files (mostly PDFs) on my HD, but I lost the links. Note above that all the docs-2.0 were of course never updated. > Oh-uh. Can't remember my point anymore. Oh, now I remember. It was: > someone nice person could implement 'mod_befunge' for apache, please. Or > should I take modbf and integrate it with my glfunge98-befunge-core and do > it myself? Hmm, mod_bf just takes a bf-file, not html with a tag. One problem is that '<' and '>' are commands in bf. The basic process of developing an apache module seems to be: 1) copy mod_example.c from the apache distribution 2) realise not even the 2.0 port of it will work with apache 2.0 3) start modifying it 4) realise that 99% of it is absolutely useless 5) delete those 99% 6) start writing the actual module so as you can see it isn't that complicated... (if you want a module with those 99% pre-deleted take a look at some small simple ones). There's still some half-finished things (such as supporting POST) I have lying around for mod_bf... I just never get around to working on it. Go forth thee/whoever and bring bad luck unto Apache! Markus Kliegl PS: Anyone had a look at Roxen? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:23:20 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [Apache] Modules (was Re: [While] Here are just SOME of the most On Thu, 31 May 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Wed, 30 May 2001, Heikki Kallasjoki wrote: > > > On 30.05.01, at 21:12, Gerson Kurz wrote with subject '[While everyone else...': > > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/modbf/ - A brainf*ck module for the Apache > > > Webserver. > > By the way, I do like this project. When (if?) the author implements POST > parameter handling, I'll recommend this as a primary web development > technology to my friends. There didn't seem to be any interest in mod_bf and I lacked the time to test any changes. I have POST implemented on my local copy... I'm just not sure if it works the way it's supposed to (I'm not really a specialist on the HTTP protocol). > > > Never actually began to implement that, as the apache module API seemed so > > disgusting. I'm too lazy to learn something like that :p > > This is another thing, modbf demonstrates beautifully the apache module > API. Which seems quite clean and nice to me. The Apache API itself has a great design and several papers have been written on it. The problem is the lack of documentation and the developers of Apache obviously have better things to do than document functions. On a side note, I rather doubt mod_bf beautifully demonstrates the API. If you need examples, please do look at other modules. Another interesting approach I've seen was mod_lisp. Rather than embedding an entire common lisp interpreter into it, it sends the contents of the requested file to a lisp server and sends what it receives from that server back to the client. (Unfortunately, the author of mod_lisp seems to have missed the '99% of mod_example is useless in most cases' part.) So, if there's a befunge server around somewhere, go ahead and try that approach :-) > > > Oh-uh. Can't remember my point anymore. Oh, now I remember. It was: > > someone nice person could implement 'mod_befunge' for apache, please. Or > > should I take modbf and integrate it with my glfunge98-befunge-core and do > > it myself? I haven't had a look at Roxen or Pike yet, but Pike is apparently nicer to use for writing modules than C. So I suppose you could write a mod_bef for Roxen if you hate the Apache API too much :-) > > Yes, you should. > > Panu Markus ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [ActiveX/M$] The java rant deserves its own posting because java deser Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:04:21 +0100 > On 31. Mai 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > I've had to make some ActiveX dll's to link a proprietary authentication > library to ASP so that it can be used from the scripts. I don't know what > I'd have done differently for ActiveX / COM itself (well, actually many > things, but not fundamentally different), but what really irritated me is > how M$ makes you reduplicate your metadata at least twice. You need a C++ > header for your implementor class, as well as the source code - this is > normal; then, you need a header for the interface class (why can't you use > the implementation class as the interface?) _and_ an IDL definition > (somewhat M$-specific, not usable for anything else) of the interface. and a typelib if your going to be called back from VB. Here are just *some* other annoying things: - You have a component system that makes it profoundly difficult to reuse *your own* components directly. How many times have you implemented IUnknown and IDispatch, only to support a lousy interface ? 99% of my classes all derive from a common base class (Hello Lisp-Style Lists) but I can't do that with IUnknowns, because they must be the first to be inherited. I wrote a *very dirty* functable hack for that (I create a list of DWORDs with function pointers, set the code as executable, and create this as my IUnknown). - The ATL code. It is so complicated I outright refuse to use it - if anything is broken, you have zero (NIL) chance to finding out what was going on. TEMPLATE HELL. I have always disliked STL in the first place, (I'm not using it either) and didn't think it could be topped, but there goes ATL: even worse. - GUIDs. On the BNC (old german mini computer from the 80s still used in banks) you didn't access files, you accessed hd sectors. THAT is the GUID role model: a long, unreadable sector number. Its all about security, you know. - IDispatch. You have to implement IDispatch because of the dreaded VB shit, but the compiler already knows of your language definition (from the .ODL). WHY ON EARTH can MIDL not create the IDispatch implementation if it can also create the Type Library ? - and so on. > As for using ActiveX components, M$'s own interfaces are IMO very badly > designed. That is CLEARLY an understatement. It seems to me most interfaces are designed by the VB core team, and are just published documentation on how VB works internally: they made a hack to make something work, and the next day it is published as ISomeInterface2 to the world. > The admirable property of these featureful IDE's (visual studio etc) is > that they do things automatically, and they do them automatically wrong. > There's always some flag (named like "preserve idioms in the project") > which you have to put on to make your program compile. Then you just go > ahead and try all combinations of flags and other parameters. And of > course there is no way to set them any other time than when you're > creating a new project, otherwise you wouldn't have to purge your project > every time and start a new one, copying your sources from somewhere else > and see if it compiles with _these_ flags. I have written my own, template based Code Generation Wizard for DevStudio. I don't have problems with compiler flags because these templates turn of all optimizations. (Oddly, the *ONLY* switch my Code Generator cannot set is "Build Browse Information", because it is stored in the binary .NCB/.OPT files). TIP: If you want to impress your boss, write down the filesize of an executable (or DLL or whatever). Add /ALIGN:16384 to the custom linker settings and recompile; check the filesize again and say you did some important optimization :) It almost never fails to do the trick... ~~~ And, just to be cool, here is how to change the font of your Win32 console from Lucida Console to Courier New Bold on Windows NT/2K: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\FontSubstitutes\Lucida Console : REG_SZ : Courier New Reboot, change to Lucide Console, enable Bold Fonts, and there you go. PS. Can somebody PLEASE change the list robot so that when I reply to the mails the reply is not sent to the original author but to the list ???? PLEAASZZZZZZZZE. (I think Chris rightly complained about this before, too). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:21:18 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] [BF] ENSI standardization Hi, there are so many brainfuck implementations and they all differ, so I thought there's a need to standardize brainfuck. I got together with ENSI and worked out this draft proposal. ENSI BrainFuck ENSI, the Esoteric Non-existant Standards Institute, now officially does not exist in order to standardize unstandardized standardizable things. This is important for the development of non-standard-compliance in esoteric languages. ENSI currently has one (for some odd reason) existant member, 203 non-existant members and 3 members that we know exist, but deny it. Feel free to join ENSI (at a rate of 2000 Zorkmids per year)! This document specifies a draft proposal for a standardized brainfuck as worked out by the non-existant subcommitee XYZZY-1234. Meetings are held every first Kermet-The-Frog-Day of a month. Registration costs are 420 Zorkmids. ENSI Brainfuck ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 0. Overview of the language Brainfuck There's an array a and a pointer p. Brainfuck has eight standard commands: + - > < [ ] , . Use of any other characters in a brainfuck source file results in undefined behaviour. 1. Array-Size The array-size is implementation-dependant. 2. Pointer and Array-Element initializations. The initial pointer and array-element values are implementation-dependant. 3. The '+' command Use of the '+' command results in undefined behaviour. 4. The '-' command Use of the '-' command results in implemenation-dependant behaviour. 5. The '>' command Use of the '>' command results in undefined behaviour. 6. The '<' command Use of the '<' command results in undefined behaviour. 7. The '.' command Use of the '.' command results in implemenation-dependant behaviour. 8. The ',' command Use of the ',' command results in undefined behaviour. 9. The '[' command Use of the '[' command results in undefined behaviour. 10. The ']' command Use of the ']' command results in undefined behaviour. I hope this will let us work together on common interests in brainfuck in the future. Markus ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [JAVA] Sucks, Period. Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 18:41:35 +0100 > On Wed, 31. Mai 2001 , Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > Java core is OK, except that Java's type system is not even worth > mentioning, let alone using. I'm not going to comment java compilers or > libraries, they're a different issue and they _do_ suck deeply, IMO. OK then, lets talk about the Java core. 1) My first complaint are - again - classes being declared final. A final class is a class that you cannot inherit from. So, for instance, you have the final class String, and if you want to add a String constructor that gets one of your classes as an argument I am afraid you cannot do that in Java and you have to change to some more reasonable language, such as Python, THE BEST PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD (but unfortunately, not the fastest, sorry). Or, you want to optimize a certain String function for use in your code - you cannot do that. Or, you want to just add some trace points to the code of the class String - you cannot do that. What really makes me angry is that Java schoolbooks boast that Java has "a native String datatype", and you look into the source (not part of the JDK, but downloadable from sun) you see that OF COURSE its just class wrapping a char array. How ingenious. 2) No macros, No typedefs, but unreasonably long qualifiers( "static synchronized protected void blabla" and so on). 3) How about this little gem: while (true) { try { return; } finally { continue; } } This snippet is an infinite loop! (taken from http://www.cs.arizona.edu/sumatra/hallofshame/) 4) The incredible stupid concept of using static final String name = "something" as a constant! (I don't want to think what crap code this is going to be when the compiler is finished with it). 5) Each class is a file !!!! (Files must be named like the (public) class OR YOU GET A GODDAMN COMPILER ERROR) Needless to say this is very efficient as a ridiculous amount of very very small files are what every File System Driver Developer dreams of. Some more reasons taken from http://www.jwz.org/doc/java.html (really recommended readin !) ----------- Two identical byte[] arrays aren't equal and don't hash the same. Maybe this is just a bug, but: You can't fix this by subclassing Hashtable. You can't fix this by subclassing Array because it's not really an object. What you can do is wrap an Object around an Array and let that implement hashCode and equals by digging around in its contained array, but that adds not-insignificant memory overhead (16 bytes per object, today.) Gee, I know, I'll write my own hash table. I've only done that a thousand times ----------- I can't seem to manage to iterate the characters in a String without implicitly involving half a dozen method calls per character. ----------- Interfaces seem a huge, cheesy copout for avoiding multiple inheritance; they really seem like they were grafted on as an afterthought. ----------- This ``integers aren't objects'' nonsense really pisses me off. Why did they do that? Is the answer as lame as, ``we wanted the `int' type to be 32 bits instead of 31''? (You only really need one bit of type on the pointer if you don't need small conses, after all.) The way this bit me is, I've got code that currently takes an array of objects, and operates on them in various opaque ways (all it cares about is equality, they're just cookies.) I was thinking of changing these objects to be shorts instead of objects, for compactness of their containing objects: they'd be indexes into a shared table, instead of pointers to shared objects. To do this, I would have to rewrite that other code to know that they're shorts instead of objects. Because one can't assign a short to a variable or argument that expects an Object, and consequently, one can't invoke the equal method on a short. Wrapping them up in Short objects would kind of defeat the purpose: then they'd be bigger than the pointer to the original object rather than smaller. ----------- And in related news, it's a total pain that one can't iterate over the contents of an array without knowing intimate details about its contents: you have to know whether it's byte[], or int[], or Object[]. I mean, it is not rocket science to have a language that can transparently access both boxed and unboxed storage. It's not as if Java isn't doing all the requisite runtime type checks already! It's as if they went out of their way to make this not work... Is there some philosophical point I'm missing? Is the notion of separating your algorithms from your data structures suddenly no longer a part of the so-called ``object oriented'' pantheon? ----------- By having `new' be the only possible interface to allocation, and by having no back door through which you can escape from the type safety prison, there are a whole class of ancient, well-known optimizations that one just cannot perform. If something isn't done about this, the language is never going to be fast enough for some tasks, no matter how good the JITs get. And ``write once run everywhere'' will continue to be the marketing fantasy that it is today. (much more stuff snipped, read the original site). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:15:58 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: [lang] [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter Was messing around with VBscript last night in Excel 2000, here's what I came up with :) http://www.azstarnet.com/~jeffryj/bf.xls Yes, its the same old thing.. but its fun :) Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:25:21 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: [JAVA] Sucks, Period. Darn that reply-to field, darn it to hell. I think _that's_ why the list has been so quiet. Gerson Kurz wrote: > 3) How about this little gem: > > while (true) { > try { > return; > } finally { > continue; > } > } > > This snippet is an infinite loop! (taken from > http://www.cs.arizona.edu/sumatra/hallofshame/) This doesn't seem wrong to me, assuming that the semantics of these keywords matches my understanding of them in C++. Consider: - To avoid this behavior (and the other similar case on that page), you'd have to arbitrarily disallow using "continue" or "break", and other flow-control constructs in "finally" blocks. - If you arbitrarily disallow "continue" and "break" there, you can't _conditionally_ continue and break there, which there might be a legitimate use for. If you write code that includes "continue" or "break" in a "finally" block, it's presumed that you know what you're doing. I actually don't want the compiler second-guessing me -- and carrying around extra code to second-guess me at that. What happens if you write { try { return 0; } finally { return 1; } } What do you think should happen? > Some more reasons taken from http://www.jwz.org/doc/java.html (really > recommended readin !) I like JWZ; his heart is in the right place most of the time. That said, he can be a little self-righteous at times[1]. That page starts off by dismissing C and C++ as "PDP-11 assemblers" with delusions of grandeur, then half of his criticisms of Java turn out to be things that could be easily rectified by working in C++. Thus, it seems he wants extreme power and extreme elegance simultaneously. Nothin' wrong with wanting that. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it. Maybe when JWZ is done reopening the DNA Lounge he can try writing a syntactically-elegant front-end translator to C++. I'd use it. -Russell B [1] Though I wouldn't say, in the words of Anonymous Coward: "I have yet to come across so much self-righteous bullshit as when I gaze upon the massive heap of crap that is the jwz web experience." That would be excessive. And rude. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 21:04:10 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter On Thu, 31 May 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: > subject: [lang] [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter WOW! Looks like ENSI is doing good. Only a draft proposal so far, and we already have implementations not complying... maybe we can get some companies to not fund us some time soon. ENSI ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 12:12:13 -0700 From: Brian Raiter Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter > On Thu, 31 May 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: >> subject: [lang] [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter > > WOW! Looks like ENSI is doing good. Only a draft proposal so far, > and we already have implementations not complying... I hate to be a wet blanket, but I have to point out that it doesn't actually appear to be possible for a BF interpreter to NOT comply. If you saved this email to a file and set the executable bit, you would have a BF interpreter that was compliant with ENSI draft standard. b ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 21:37:30 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter On Thu, 31 May 2001, Brian Raiter wrote: > > On Thu, 31 May 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: > >> subject: [lang] [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter > > > > WOW! Looks like ENSI is doing good. Only a draft proposal so far, > > and we already have implementations not complying... > > I hate to be a wet blanket, but I have to point out that it doesn't > actually appear to be possible for a BF interpreter to NOT comply. If > you saved this email to a file and set the executable bit, you would > have a BF interpreter that was compliant with ENSI draft standard. So implementing a BF-interpreter has become even simpler :-) Ok, how about we add 'MUST print "ENSI-compliant Brainfuck Interpreter/Compiler" on startup. Also, in order to prove its compliance it MUST print the secret code. The secret code, which nobody is allowed to know' to the standard (it is after all a draft)? I think that might work. The point is after all to have a standard to NOT comply to. > > b ENSI ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:42:12 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [lang] ENSI standardization On Thu, 31 May 2001, markus.kliegl wrote: > ENSI, the Esoteric Non-existant Standards Institute, now officially does > not exist in order to standardize unstandardized standardizable things. > This is important for the development of non-standard-compliance in > esoteric languages. I'm with you. When I find the time for it, I'll set up a committee to design the ENSI pizza slice standard, as well as the standard for "proper thoughts"... and why not also the standard of standards, ie what all standards should be like?-) > ENSI currently has one (for some odd reason) existant member, 203 > non-existant members and 3 members that we know exist, but deny it. I propose we take all communities with zero members to be automatically members of ENSI. This has the nice side-effect of creating a paradox if (when?) ENSI loses all its members. > Feel free to join ENSI (at a rate of 2000 Zorkmids per year)! I'm in. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:59:23 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: [lang] Re: [JAVA] Sucks, Period. On Thu, 31 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote: > OK then, lets talk about the Java core. > > 1) My first complaint are - again - classes being declared final. Yes. The only real use for this is classes that are not written in Java and have to be protected somehow. That Sun uses it for other purposes also, is idiotic; but the feature is not totally useless. > 2) No macros, No typedefs, but unreasonably long qualifiers( "static > synchronized protected void blabla" and so on). Doesn't disturb me. Whatever. > 3) How about this little gem: > > while (true) { > try { > return; > } finally { > continue; > } > } > > This snippet is an infinite loop! (taken from Wow! I'll give the Java core credit for that! It would have been easy to forget to check finally{} blocks in the event of a return. (Reminds me of the gcc bug, return var++ produced a ret instruction before the increment :) > 5) Each class is a file !!!! (Files must be named like the (public) class OR > YOU GET A GODDAMN COMPILER ERROR) Needless to say this is very efficient as > a ridiculous amount of very very small files are what every File System > Driver Developer dreams of. I don't think this is a language issue, but a compiler issue. I might be wrong, of course. > Some more reasons taken from http://www.jwz.org/doc/java.html (really > recommended readin !) I _despise_ jwz. He really talks a lot, and does not seem to know at all what he's talking about. He never admits he's wrong, and does things that are plain stupid (like killing ALT because it shows in addition to the picture, not as alternative). Many geek gurus are persistent like he is, but most other really know something about their area(s). > Interfaces seem a huge, cheesy copout for avoiding multiple inheritance; > they really seem like they were grafted on as an afterthought. They are. But they're good IMO. Inheritance is what I'd cast out first, then interfaces. > This ``integers aren't objects'' nonsense really pisses me off. Why did they > do that? Is the answer as lame as, ``we wanted the `int' type to be 32 bits > instead of 31''? (You only really need one bit of type on the pointer if you > don't need small conses, after all.) They differentiate immediate data from references. An object is always passed by reference, and you often don't want this for really simple data, like integers. > The way this bit me is, I've got code that currently takes an array of > objects, and operates on them in various opaque ways (all it cares about is > equality, they're just cookies.) I was thinking of changing these objects to > be shorts instead of objects, for compactness of their containing objects: > they'd be indexes into a shared table, instead of pointers to shared > objects. As said, the type system is bad. > boxed and unboxed storage. It's not as if Java isn't doing all the requisite > runtime type checks already! It's as if they went out of their way to make Well, Java isn't. The call interface is non-parametric. This is the problem of the type system. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:05:41 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter On Thu, 31 May 2001, markus.kliegl wrote: > Ok, how about we add 'MUST print "ENSI-compliant Brainfuck > Interpreter/Compiler" on startup. Also, in order to prove its compliance > it MUST print the secret code. The secret code, which nobody is allowed > to know' to the standard (it is after all a draft)? I think that might > work. Or rather, to get the paper version of the draft (which, of course, contains the secret code for the time being), you have to pay. That's what standardisation institutes are for, anyway. > The point is after all to have a standard to NOT comply to. It doesn't disturb me, however, if there happened to be some program that is ENSI compliant. How about saying that "no program can be ENSI compliant" but actually allowing them to be? Panu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:27:19 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization On Thu, 31 May 2001, markus.kliegl wrote: > ENSI Brainfuck > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ha ha! I'm going to revise the standard! This is ENSI Brainfuck, v1.2: > 0. Overview of the language Brainfuck There are things. Things are arbitrary symbols. The things of brainfuck have a relation <(2), which is discrete, transitive, serial and asymmetric. This is called a "discrete order". > There's an array a and a pointer p. An array is a collection of things where every thing has a name. Names are things that have a discrete order. A pointer is a name. > Brainfuck has eight standard commands: + - > < [ ] , . > Use of any other characters in a brainfuck source file results in > undefined behaviour. > > 1. Array-Size > The array-size is implementation-dependant. The size of an array means the maximum number of names that can be in such a relation to given names min and max such that <(min,name) and <(name,max). The array size is implementation-dependent but must be at least 3. > 2. Pointer and Array-Element initializations. > The initial pointer and array-element values are > implementation-dependant. But all array-elements (the things in the array) must initially be the same. This value is called "the initial value". In the following commands, the "current thing" means the thing in the array a that has the name p. > 3. The '+' command > Use of the '+' command results in undefined behaviour. However, an implementation is required to change the current thing (c) to be such a thing (c') that <(c,c') and that there is no thing d such that <(c,d) and <(d,c'). > 4. The '-' command > Use of the '-' command results in implemenation-dependant behaviour. However, an implementation is required to change the current thing (c) to be such a thing (c') that <(c',c) and that there is no thing d such that <(c',d) and <(d,c). > 5. The '>' command > Use of the '>' command results in undefined behaviour. However, an implementation is required to change the thing p to such a thing p' that <(p,p') and that there is no thing q such that <(p,q) and <(q,p'). > 6. The '<' command > Use of the '<' command results in undefined behaviour. However, an implementation is required to change the thing p to such a thing p' that <(p',p) and that there is no thing q such that <(p',q) and <(q,p). > 7. The '.' command > Use of the '.' command results in implemenation-dependant behaviour. However, the implementation must ensure that the end user (tm) of the program somehow becomes aware of the current thing. > 8. The ',' command > Use of the ',' command results in undefined behaviour. sic! > 9. The '[' command > Use of the '[' command results in undefined behaviour. This command begins a loop. For the definition of loops, see the comprehension standard (ENSI-1994/10/28-02:34:55). > 10. The ']' command > Use of the ']' command results in undefined behaviour. This command ends a loop. For the definition of loops, see the apprehension standard (ENSI-1994/10/27-15:04:27). Panu Kalliokoski ------------------------------ From: "Cal Henderson" Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:36:01 +0100 : > 9. The '[' command : > Use of the '[' command results in undefined behaviour. : : This command begins a loop. For the definition of loops, see the : comprehension standard (ENSI-1994/10/28-02:34:55). : : > 10. The ']' command : > Use of the ']' command results in undefined behaviour. : : This command ends a loop. For the definition of loops, see the : apprehension standard (ENSI-1994/10/27-15:04:27). Is it somewhat paradoxical that the end of loops were definded the day before the beginnning of loops? Or is this standard practice? Does ENSI have a standard for practice? --cal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:45:35 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Cal Henderson wrote: > Is it somewhat paradoxical that the end of loops were definded the day > before the beginnning of loops? Or is this standard practice? Does > ENSI have a standard for practice? ENSI does not (yet) have a standard for practice, though one is clearly needed, as can be seen in this case. However, it's good that the beginning has been defined after the ending; otherwise, that would have been the End of Loops as We Know Them, and we could have no loops anymore. If you looked around you on that dreadful day of October the 27th, 1994, you surely noticed that there were no loops around after about three PM. Fortunately, the situation was quickly remedied. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 03:11:40 -0700 From: Brian Raiter Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization >> 1. Array-Size >> The array-size is implementation-dependant. > > The size of an array means the maximum number of names that can be in such > a relation to given names min and max such that <(min,name) and > <(name,max). The array size is implementation-dependent but must be at > least 3. Fascist. >> 7. The '.' command >> Use of the '.' command results in implemenation-dependant behaviour. > > However, the implementation must ensure that the end user (tm) of the > program somehow becomes aware of the current thing. So an implementation must override the user if they pipe their output to /dev/null, or risk non-compliance. What if the output is going to a printer and the printer jams? Presumably a compliant implementation should immediately switch to outputting to some other device. Perhaps it can use the terminal bell to transmit the current thing via Morse code. b ------------------------------ From: "Cal Henderson" Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:15:54 +0100 : So an implementation must override the user if they pipe their output : to /dev/null, or risk non-compliance. What if the output is going to a : printer and the printer jams? Presumably a compliant implementation : should immediately switch to outputting to some other device. Perhaps : it can use the terminal bell to transmit the current thing via Morse : code. quite probably, but what if the terminal's internal speaker isn't enabled/working? obviously any ENSI compliant implementation should output all data to STDOUT, STDERR, all files in the file system, all files on the network and email to everyone in the address book. I'm pretty sure my perl version isn't compliant. --cal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:27:55 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Brian Raiter wrote: > > However, the implementation must ensure that the end user (tm) of the > > program somehow becomes aware of the current thing. > So an implementation must override the user if they pipe their output > to /dev/null, or risk non-compliance. What if the output is going to a Yes. Or the implementation could always open /dev/tty and be tagged "almost compliant", which seems to be the *standard* way with any implementations anyway (I don't think gcc is ANSI compliant, sizeof(void) should not be 1?)... In any case, this is a more elegant way to make it impossible for the implementation to strictly comply to the standard. > printer and the printer jams? Presumably a compliant implementation > should immediately switch to outputting to some other device. Perhaps I think a compliant implementation would fix the printer. > it can use the terminal bell to transmit the current thing via Morse > code. Oh, and many other ways. The standard does not say it must make the end user _directly_ aware of the thing. :) Panu ------------------------------ From: "Cal Henderson" Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:33:43 +0100 damn reply-to thing! : Oh, and many other ways. The standard does not say it must make the end : user _directly_ aware of the thing. :) subliminaly is acceptable? i think the standard needs to be specific about this. or perhaps make the user 'aware' in the same way i'm 'aware' about global warming. --cal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:37:58 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [ActiveX/M$] (was: testing NT or something) On Thu, 31 May 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote: > - The ATL code. It is so complicated I outright refuse to use it - if ATL is fun. I'm not going to try to use it, of course... > anything is broken, you have zero (NIL) chance to finding out what was going > on. TEMPLATE HELL. I have always disliked STL in the first place, (I'm not > using it either) and didn't think it could be topped, but there goes ATL: > even worse. I think STL is quite nice. What makes the M$ way of using C++ really funny is that they use obsolete, over-powerful features like pointers all the time even if they don't have to, they use macros for types and type juggling even when there are typedefs and *_cast<>(), and they produce _really bad_ template code. (MS's C++ does not support templates properly, either.) > - IDispatch. You have to implement IDispatch because of the dreaded VB shit, > but the compiler already knows of your language definition (from the .ODL). > WHY ON EARTH can MIDL not create the IDispatch implementation if it can also > create the Type Library ? What I wonder is why doesn't MIDL create _every_ fucking not-needed metadata file (all other except the implementation) from the .IDL / .ODL... and why the heck are there there binary project files which really contain information you can't modify by any existing program? (My standard solution to modify project settings is to delete the project file.) > I have written my own, template based Code Generation Wizard for DevStudio. > I don't have problems with compiler flags because these templates turn of > all optimizations. (Oddly, the *ONLY* switch my Code Generator cannot set is > "Build Browse Information", because it is stored in the binary .NCB/.OPT > files). Hmmm. Distribute that with good documentation and you'll be a hero. > PS. Can somebody PLEASE change the list robot so that when I reply to the > mails the reply is not sent to the original author but to the list ???? > PLEAASZZZZZZZZE. (I think Chris rightly complained about this before, too). Um. I can't seem to come up with a way to make this work with the cascading of the lists. Is it a problem with some mail client (no "reply reply to all recipients" feature)? Panu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:05:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: [lang] ENSI page, anybody? So... how about an ENSI home page? http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/tarpit/ensi/index.html Yes, I know there's nothing there yet. But feel free to offer things -- I will be putting up the ENSI draft Brainfuck spec in a little bit. And I will be writing an official song. I can even start a yahoogroups mailing list if y'all want, though you'll probably want ensi@esoteric.sange.fi instead... /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:32:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: [lang] [ENSI] Proposed ENSI song to the tune of "if you can't figure it out you don't deserve to know" we don't need no standardization (dum da dum da dum da dum dum dum dum) we don't need no flow-control (dum da dum da dum da dum dum dum dum) no Visual Basic in a window (dum da dum da dum da dum dum dum dum) hey Basic leave us geeks alone all in all it's just another bottle on the wall all in all you're just another bottle on the wall repeat ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 09:36:03 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization Brian Raiter wrote: > > >> 7. The '.' command > >> Use of the '.' command results in implemenation-dependant behaviour. > > > > However, the implementation must ensure that the end user (tm) of the > > program somehow becomes aware of the current thing. > > So an implementation must override the user if they pipe their output > to /dev/null, or risk non-compliance. What if the output is going to a > printer and the printer jams? Define /dev/null as an "end user". Problem solved; /dev/null ultimately sees all and knows all. We all come from /dev/null, and we shall all return to /dev/null This Message Brought To You By The Church of /dev/null ------------------------------ From: Steve Mosher Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:41:14 -0300 On Fri, 01 Jun 2001, Russell Bornschlegel pressed some keys and this came out: > Define /dev/null as an "end user". Problem solved; /dev/null > ultimately sees all and knows all. We all come from /dev/null, > and we shall all return to /dev/null > > This Message Brought To You By The Church of /dev/null Hm? I always thought that we all came from /dev/urandom - the return to /dev/null thing is, of course, spot on. -- Steve Mad Scientist ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 18:52:35 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke Subject: Re: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization Steve Mosher wrote: > > On Fri, 01 Jun 2001, Russell Bornschlegel pressed some keys and this came out: > > Define /dev/null as an "end user". Problem solved; /dev/null > > ultimately sees all and knows all. We all come from /dev/null, > > and we shall all return to /dev/null > > > > This Message Brought To You By The Church of /dev/null > > Hm? I always thought that we all came from /dev/urandom - the return to > /dev/null thing is, of course, spot on. Hmmm not sure... isn't there some loop that feeds /dev/urandom from the remainders of things eaten by /dev/null ? Shouldn't we say we all come from /dev/urandom, and we shall all return to /dev/urandom ? -- Frederic, proud member of the /dev/urandom Church. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 18:55:01 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter "markus.kliegl" wrote: > > On Thu, 31 May 2001, Brian Raiter wrote: > > > > On Thu, 31 May 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: > > >> subject: [lang] [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter > > > > > > WOW! Looks like ENSI is doing good. Only a draft proposal so far, > > > and we already have implementations not complying... > > > > I hate to be a wet blanket, but I have to point out that it doesn't > > actually appear to be possible for a BF interpreter to NOT comply. If > > you saved this email to a file and set the executable bit, you would > > have a BF interpreter that was compliant with ENSI draft standard. > > So implementing a BF-interpreter has become even simpler :-) Implementing a _compliant_ BF-interpreter. Not the same thing ;-) > > Ok, how about we add 'MUST print "ENSI-compliant Brainfuck > Interpreter/Compiler" on startup. Also, in order to prove its compliance > it MUST print the secret code. The secret code, which nobody is allowed > to know' to the standard (it is after all a draft)? I think that might > work. > > The point is after all to have a standard to NOT comply to. Perhaps... but it also destroys the aim of (real-life) standards when it's so easy to satisfy them with useless products because of holes in the standard (it happens to some real standards, i guess). So, perhaps, the standard should be at the same time unsatisfiable, and "almost satisfied" by programs that are far from complying with the spirit of the ENSI-would-be-standardized thing. I like the idea of a standard that is too easy or even trivial to satisfy. In the ENSI declaration of intent, "non-standard-compliance" can be read as "(non-standard) compliance" as well as "non (standard-compliance)". > Feel free to join ENSI (at a rate of 2000 Zorkmids per year)! _one_ burke ? that's too much for me. Frédéric vdP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:18:30 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization Steve Mosher wrote: > > On Fri, 01 Jun 2001, Russell Bornschlegel pressed some keys and this came out: > > Define /dev/null as an "end user". Problem solved; /dev/null > > ultimately sees all and knows all. We all come from /dev/null, > > and we shall all return to /dev/null > > > > This Message Brought To You By The Church of /dev/null > > Hm? I always thought that we all came from /dev/urandom - the return to > /dev/null thing is, of course, spot on. Pish! Pish and tosh! Where do you think /dev/urandom came from? Besides, the fossil record shows that /dev/null is far older than /dev/urandom, and that's not even counting the period of time before /dev/null could be named. See, this is why the lang vs. misc thing is gonna be a problem. TMBTYBTCO/dev/null ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 19:58:38 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: Re: [lang] ENSI standardization On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Thu, 31 May 2001, markus.kliegl wrote: > > > ENSI, the Esoteric Non-existant Standards Institute, now officially does > > not exist in order to standardize unstandardized standardizable things. > > This is important for the development of non-standard-compliance in > > esoteric languages. > > I'm with you. When I find the time for it, I'll set up a committee to > design the ENSI pizza slice standard, as well as the standard for "proper > thoughts"... and why not also the standard of standards, ie what all > standards should be like?-) I held a vote and 281 (non-existant) members (of 323) agreed on (not) standardizing all of the above mentioned. (323 non-exstant members already!) We also decided on starting a subcommitee X3J13/AZZIP-22 for those purposes. > > > ENSI currently has one (for some odd reason) existant member, 203 > > non-existant members and 3 members that we know exist, but deny it. > > I propose we take all communities with zero members to be automatically > members of ENSI. This has the nice side-effect of creating a paradox if > (when?) ENSI loses all its members. > > > Feel free to join ENSI (at a rate of 2000 Zorkmids per year)! > > I'm in. Who did you pay? > > Panu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:01:55 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Brian Raiter wrote: > >> 7. The '.' command > >> Use of the '.' command results in implemenation-dependant behaviour. > > > > However, the implementation must ensure that the end user (tm) of the > > program somehow becomes aware of the current thing. > > So an implementation must override the user if they pipe their output > to /dev/null, or risk non-compliance. What if the output is going to a > printer and the printer jams? Presumably a compliant implementation > should immediately switch to outputting to some other device. Perhaps > it can use the terminal bell to transmit the current thing via Morse > code. Actually the standard doesn't define how something must be implemented. It just has to be implemented that way to (not) be compliant. But now that you mention it, we might as well standardize implementation practices for the sake of (not) having a standard for it. > > b ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:12:34 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, [iso-8859-1] Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote: > >=20 > > Ok, how about we add 'MUST print "ENSI-compliant Brainfuck > > Interpreter/Compiler" on startup. Also, in order to prove its complianc= e > > it MUST print the secret code. The secret code, which nobody is allowed > > to know' to the standard (it is after all a draft)? I think that might > > work. > >=20 > > The point is after all to have a standard to NOT comply to. >=20 > Perhaps... but it also destroys the aim of (real-life) standards when > it's so easy to satisfy them with useless products because of holes > in the standard (it happens to some real standards, i guess). >=20 > So, perhaps, the standard should be at the same time unsatisfiable,=20 > and "almost satisfied" by programs that are far from complying with the > spirit of the ENSI-would-be-standardized thing. Rather than waiting for interpreters/compilers to implement all of ENSI's= =20 specified features, we could just go ahead and mark some interpreters ENSI-compliant, thus putting pressure on the others to catch up. >=20 > I like the idea of a standard that is too easy or even trivial to satisfy= =2E > In the ENSI declaration of intent, "non-standard-compliance" can be read > as "(non-standard) compliance" as well as "non (standard-compliance)". Great. I think we should add that to the ENSI homepage. >=20 > > Feel free to join ENSI (at a rate of 2000 Zorkmids per year)! > _one_ burke ? that's too much for me. If you can prove you exist and the deny it, we'll take you up for free. ENSI sponsors (non) existing members that exist, but either deny it or simply don't exist, while actually existing. >=20 > Fr=E9d=E9ric vdP This message was (not) sent after the majority of the ENSI members voted on (not) doing so. ENSI ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:16:34 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] [M$ Excel] [not ENSI compliant] Interpreter On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Thu, 31 May 2001, markus.kliegl wrote: > > > Ok, how about we add 'MUST print "ENSI-compliant Brainfuck > > Interpreter/Compiler" on startup. Also, in order to prove its compliance > > it MUST print the secret code. The secret code, which nobody is allowed > > to know' to the standard (it is after all a draft)? I think that might > > work. > > Or rather, to get the paper version of the draft (which, of course, > contains the secret code for the time being), you have to pay. That's what > standardisation institutes are for, anyway. "In order to obtain a paper version of the draft, please contact your next-door neighbor and ask him to print the draft out for you. The secret code can be ordered separately from an olive tree in your area." > Panu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:22:12 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Cal Henderson wrote: > > > Is it somewhat paradoxical that the end of loops were definded the day > > before the beginnning of loops? Or is this standard practice? Does > > ENSI have a standard for practice? > > ENSI does not (yet) have a standard for practice, though one is clearly > needed, as can be seen in this case. Most certainly! > > However, it's good that the beginning has been defined after the ending; > otherwise, that would have been the End of Loops as We Know Them, and we > could have no loops anymore. If you looked around you on that dreadful day > of October the 27th, 1994, you surely noticed that there were no loops > around after about three PM. Fortunately, the situation was quickly > remedied. We ought to standardize the End of Loops as We Know Them, so no such horribble things as "remedying the situation" (without a feasible standard on how to remedy situations) can possibly happen next time. > > Panu > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:24:18 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Cal Henderson wrote: > I'm pretty sure my perl version isn't > compliant. Sure it is. Congratulations! Your implementation is the fifth (after four already functional non-compliant and non-existant implementations) to (not) be ENSI-compliant! > > --cal > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:30:25 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [ENSI] Proposed ENSI song On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Brian Connors wrote: > to the tune of "if you can't figure it out you don't > deserve to know" > > we don't need no standardization > (dum da dum da dum da dum dum dum dum) > we don't need no flow-control > (dum da dum da dum da dum dum dum dum) > no Visual Basic in a window > (dum da dum da dum da dum dum dum dum) [Distorted "Dies Irae" Guitar Solo] > > hey Basic > leave us geeks alone > > all in all it's just another bottle on the wall > > all in all you're just another bottle on the wall > > repeat > Sorry, but since we haven't standardized songs, this can't be an official song. Thus, it is only unofficial and as a result there-of it is official as there is no standard for unofficial songs. I have shown the song to a few members of the subcommitee of music standardization and they pointed out that in the draft they're working on a maximum of 20 'dum's in a song is allowed (as opposed to the 21 in the above). OTOH, you might as well just go ahead and change the draft. Also, each song must (not) contain either the melody or text of "Dies Irae" or both (or none for that matter). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:31:46 -0700 From: Brian Raiter Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization >>>> 7. The '.' command >>>> Use of the '.' command results in implemenation-dependant behaviour. >>> >>> However, the implementation must ensure that the end user (tm) of the >>> program somehow becomes aware of the current thing. >> >> So an implementation must override the user if they pipe their output >> to /dev/null, or risk non-compliance. What if the output is going to a >> printer and the printer jams? > > Define /dev/null as an "end user". *forehead slap* Boy, I feel stupid now. I should have thought of that. b ------------------------------ From: "Matthew Westcott" Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 21:03:12 +0100 Subject: [lang] [list-meta] Whatever happened to... I notice that some recent topics seem to have gone astray recently, no doubt partly due to the change of venue. So, whatever happened to... 1) The SETI puzzle? It's possible that we reached the end of this without me noticing, but I seem to remember that people were waiting for the next instalment to clear up some loose ends raised in the previous one. We got as far as [SPOILER ALERT] decoding some pictures on hexagonal grids, and I certainly hope that wasn't the end - I was hoping for a wonderful twist to finish off the saga, and instead we got the revelation that the messages were sent by a stereotypical alien with pointy ears and six legs. 2) The Essies, categories 2 and 3? We appear to have the full complement of judges back, and I know that there was at least one entry (my first foray into the world of Befunge, no less). Is there any chance of seeing the results, or shall I just release my killer Befunge app to the world anyway? Matthew Westcott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:17:44 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [License] EGPL? There seems to be a need for a standard license. I propose the EGPL (ENSI General Public License / Eris the Goddess' Primitive License / non-ENSI compliant Goofy Play License), optionally known as ESD License (Erkely Software Distribution License?), to have a common license under which we can (not) freely use and (not) modify (non-)ENSI-compliant software. Proposed EGPL/ESD License Draft: The ENSI General Public License ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You may do whatever you want with all files distributed under this license under the terms and conditions of the ENSI General Public License. How to use the license: In order to EGPL files, you must use the "copymiddle" process, in which you steal some proprietary files from a company, claim they're yours and sell them under the terms and conditions of the ENSI General Public License. (Optionally, you may give your own files to someone else, who then claims he stole them from you and EGPLs them.) Markus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:22:05 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: [License] EGPL? "markus.kliegl" wrote: > The ENSI General Public License > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > You may do whatever you want with all files distributed under this license > under the terms and conditions of the ENSI General Public License. Hmm, I don't know, I think this should be "You may not do whatever you want, regardless of what you want." -RB ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:29:53 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] [mod_bf] ANN: Release 0.2 Hi, I released mod_bf 0.2 today (you can get it at http://sourceforge.net/projects/modbf). Due to popular request (of one person), it now supports POST and is *almost* ENSI-compliant. The question is what should be done: Would it make sense to have something like: ... ++<++ ?> I'd have to use ?> to delimit the end, as html for some odd reason uses bf-commands in its syntax. Another idea is the following: http://xyz/xyzzy.bf?init=0d0d1d64d1&input=abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz where init is the initialization of the array (and 'd' is the delimiter between the elements) and input is the actual input the bf-program receives. I'm not sure if any of that would be useful. In particular the last suggestion would disallow bf-programs to manually parse the field=x stuff (however inconvenient that might be in BF). Any other ideas, comments, etc. ? Markus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 01:52:24 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] [ENSI BF] Grammar Hey, I somehow managed to forget to include a grammar for ENSI Brainfuck in the draft proposal. Attached are the grammar in EBF (Extended BrainFuck / almost ENSI-compliant BrainFuck) as grammar-pp.bf and the two programs used to generate it: bf-gen-text.ml which, as you can see, has some weird problems with generating the looping constructs and bf-pp.ml which will neatly print out a file into 80 columns and take out all garbage that isn't a brainfuck command. bf-gen-text was a quick shot at a program to generate a bf-program that outputs text, so I highly doubt its ad-hoc algorithm is any good (and it generates lots of bogus loops ">[<>-]<..."). Has anyone written something similar that creates better bf-code? Markus -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- File: bf-pp.ml (* bf-pp.ml -- A Brainfuck Pretty-Printer Formats everything neatly into 80 columns and strips off everything that isn't a brainfuck command. Recommended usage: bf-pp < file.bf > file-pp.bf (Compile with: ocaml[opt] -o bf-pp bf-pp.ml) As public domain as possibly possible (again)! *) let bf_tokens = ['+'; '-'; '>'; '<'; '.'; ','; '['; ']'] let rec pretty_print n = let c = input_char stdin in if not (List.mem c bf_tokens) then pretty_print n else if n < 80 then (print_char c; pretty_print (n + 1)) else (print_newline (); print_char c; pretty_print 1) let _ = try pretty_print 1 with End_of_file -> print_newline () -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- File: bf-gen-text.ml (* bf-gen-text.ml v0.1 An Ocaml Program to generate brainfuck code that outputs a given ascii text using an efficient Mark and Sweep algorithm (Called bf-gen-text for lack of a worse name) There's some weird bug in the program that makes it only manage to generate the looping construct sometimes, and mostly only stammer out a ">[<>-]". If you have any idea what the problem is let me know :-) WARNING: Generated BF-code is only *almost* ENSI-compliant! Recommended Usage: bf-gen-text < in_file > out_file.bf (Compile with: ocamlopt/ocamlc -o bf-gen-text bf-gen-text.ml) As public domain as possibly possible! *) let cur = ref 0 let inc_or_dec n = let out_c = if n < 0 then '-' else '+' in let rec aux i = if i = 0 then () else (print_char out_c; aux (i - 1)) in aux (abs n) let loop n = let x = sqrt (float_of_int n) in let y = int_of_float (floor x) and z = int_of_float (ceil x) in print_char '>'; inc_or_dec y; print_string "[<"; inc_or_dec z; print_string ">-]<"; let m = y * z in let o = (n - m) in inc_or_dec o; cur := !cur + m + o let gen c = let diff = (c - !cur) in if diff = 0 then print_char '.' else if (abs diff) < 13 then (inc_or_dec diff; cur := !cur + diff; print_char '.') else (loop diff; print_char '.') let _ = while true do try gen (int_of_char (input_char stdin)) with End_of_file -> exit 0 done -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- File: grammar-pp.bf >+++++++[<++++++++>-]<++++.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.>[<>-]<--------------.++++++ ++++++.++++.>[<>-]<----------------.+++++++++.-----------.++.>[<>-]<------------ ---------------------------.>[<>-]<------------------------------.>+++[<++++>-]< +..>++++[<+++++>-]<---.>[<>-]<------------------------------.>++++++++[<++++++++ +>-]<---.++++++++.+++.++++.+++++.>[<>-]<---------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------.>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.> [<>-]<-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------.+++++++.++++.----.-------.>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>[<>-] <------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------.+++++++.++++++.------.-------.>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>[<>-]< -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------.+++++++.>++++[<+++++>-]<+++.>[<>-]<-----------------------.-------. >+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>[<>-]<-------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------.+++++++.>++++[<+++++>-]<+.>[<>- ]<---------------------.-------.>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>[<>-]<------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- .+++++++.+++++++.-------.-------.>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>[<>-]<----------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -.+++++++.+++++.-----.-------.>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>[<>-]<-------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------.> +++++[<++++++>-]<--.>++++++[<+++++++>-]<++++++.+++..+.>[<>-]<------------------- -------------------------------.>[<>-]<----------------------------------------- -----------.>++++[<+++++>-]<++............>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>[<>-]<-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------..>+++++[<++++++>-]<--.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.>[<>-]<--------------.+ +++++++++++.++++.>[<>-]<----------------.+++++++++.-----------.++.>[<>-]<------- --------------------------------.>[<>-]<------------------------------.>+++++[<+ +++++>-]<--.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.>[<>-]<--------------.++++++++++++.++++.>[<> -]<----------------.+++++++++.-----------.++.>[<>-]<---------------------------- -----------.>[<>-]<----------------------------------------------------.>+++++++ [<++++++++>-]<------.>++++++[<+++++++>-]<++++++.+++..+.>[<>-]<------------------ --------------------------------.>[<>-]<------------------------------.....>+++[ <++++>-]<+..>++++[<+++++>-]<---.>[<>-]<------------------------------.+++++++.>+ ++++++[<++++++++>-]<----.>[<>-]<------------------------------------------------ ----.-------.>+++++[<++++++>-]<--.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.>[<>-]<--------------. ++++++++++++.++++.>[<>-]<----------------.+++++++++.-----------.++.>[<>-]<------ ---------------------------------.>[<>-]<------------------------------.+++++++. >+++++++[<++++++++>-]<--.>[<>-]<------------------------------------------------ ------.>[<>-]<-----------------------------. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 02:29:44 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] [ENSI BF] Corrected grammar and programs Hi, sorry for posting so quickly... I had a look at the stuff again and corrected a few problems: bf-pp formatted into 79 columns, not 80 and the reason for bf-gen-text's weird looping problems was that it didn't handle negative numbers correctly. So that's all fixed and the shorter, neater grammar is included again. I'd still be interested in seeing other BF-text-output-generation-programs (if possible, ENSI-compliant ones). Markus -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- File: grammar-pp.bf >+++++++[<++++++++>-]<++++.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.>++++[<--->-]<--.++++++++++++ .++++.>++++[<---->-]<.+++++++++.-----------.++.>+++++++[<------>-]<+++.>++++++[<- ---->-]<.>+++[<++++>-]<+..>++++[<+++++>-]<---.>++++++[<----->-]<.>++++++++[<+++++ ++++>-]<---.++++++++.+++.++++.+++++.>++++++++++[<--------->-]<+.>+++++++++[<+++++ +++++>-]<++.>++++++++++[<--------->-]<--.+++++++.++++.----.-------.>+++++++++[<++ ++++++++>-]<++.>++++++++++[<--------->-]<--.+++++++.++++++.------.-------.>++++++ +++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>++++++++++[<--------->-]<--.+++++++.>++++[<+++++>-]<+++.>+ ++++[<---->-]<---.-------.>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>++++++++++[<--------->-]< --.+++++++.>++++[<+++++>-]<+.>+++++[<---->-]<-.-------.>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]< ++.>++++++++++[<--------->-]<--.+++++++.+++++++.-------.-------.>+++++++++[<+++++ +++++>-]<++.>++++++++++[<--------->-]<--.+++++++.+++++.-----.-------.>+++++++++[< ++++++++++>-]<++.>++++++++++[<--------->-]<--.>+++++[<++++++>-]<--.>++++++[<+++++ ++>-]<++++++.+++..+.>++++++++[<------->-]<++++++.>++++++++[<------->-]<++++.>++++ [<+++++>-]<++............>+++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<++.>++++++++++[<--------->-]<- -..>+++++[<++++++>-]<--.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.>++++[<--->-]<--.++++++++++++.+++ +.>++++[<---->-]<.+++++++++.-----------.++.>+++++++[<------>-]<+++.>++++++[<----- >-]<.>+++++[<++++++>-]<--.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.>++++[<--->-]<--.++++++++++++.+ +++.>++++[<---->-]<.+++++++++.-----------.++.>+++++++[<------>-]<+++.>++++++++[<- ------>-]<++++.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<------.>++++++[<+++++++>-]<++++++.+++..+.>++ ++++++[<------->-]<++++++.>++++++[<----->-]<.....>+++[<++++>-]<+..>++++[<+++++>-] <---.>++++++[<----->-]<.+++++++.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<----.>++++++++[<------->-]< ++++.-------.>+++++[<++++++>-]<--.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.>++++[<--->-]<--.++++++ ++++++.++++.>++++[<---->-]<.+++++++++.-----------.++.>+++++++[<------>-]<+++.>+++ +++[<----->-]<.+++++++.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<--.>++++++++[<------->-]<++.>++++++[ <----->-]<+. -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- File: bf-gen-text.ml (* bf-gen-text.ml An Ocaml Program to generate brainfuck code that outputs a given ascii text using an efficient Mark and Sweep algorithm (Called bf-gen-text for lack of a worse name) WARNING: Generated BF-code is only *almost* ENSI-compliant! Recommended Usage: bf-gen-text < in_file > out_file.bf (Compile with: ocamlopt/ocamlc -o bf-gen-text bf-gen-text.ml) As public domain as possibly possible! *) let cur = ref 0 let inc_or_dec n = let out_c = if n < 0 then '-' else '+' in let rec aux i = if i = 0 then () else (print_char out_c; aux (i - 1)) in aux (abs n) let loop n = let x = if n < 0 then (-. (sqrt (float_of_int (abs n)))) else sqrt (float_of_int n) in let y = abs (int_of_float (floor x)) and z = int_of_float (ceil x) in print_char '>'; inc_or_dec y; print_string "[<"; inc_or_dec z; print_string ">-]<"; let m = y * z in let o = (n - m) in inc_or_dec o; cur := !cur + m + o let gen c = let diff = (c - !cur) in if diff = 0 then print_char '.' else if (abs diff) < 13 then (inc_or_dec diff; cur := !cur + diff; print_char '.') else (loop diff; print_char '.') let _ = while true do try gen (int_of_char (input_char stdin)) with End_of_file -> exit 0 done -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- File: bf-pp.ml (* bf-pp.ml -- A Brainfuck Pretty-Printer Formats everything neatly into 80 columns and strips off everything that isn't a brainfuck command. Recommended usage: bf-pp < file.bf > file-pp.bf (Compile with: ocaml[opt] -o bf-pp bf-pp.ml) As public domain as possibly possible (again)! *) let bf_tokens = ['+'; '-'; '>'; '<'; '.'; ','; '['; ']'] let rec pretty_print n = let c = input_char stdin in if not (List.mem c bf_tokens) then pretty_print n else if n < 80 then (print_char c; pretty_print (n + 1)) else (print_newline (); print_char c; pretty_print 0) let _ = try pretty_print 0 with End_of_file -> print_newline () ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 23:30:22 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: [list-meta][SETI Puzzle] Whatever happened to... Matthew Westcott wrote: > > I notice that some recent topics seem to have gone astray recently, > no doubt partly due to the change of venue. So, whatever happened > to... > 1) The SETI puzzle? There's still a lot of it to go; are people ready for the next installment? -RB ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:27:46 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [ENSI BF] Corrected grammar and programs On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: > > Hi, > > Thank you for making a BF text gen program! > > Can I use your text generation routines in a project I am working on > (BFBasic -> BF compiler)? I haven't posted it out to everyone because > it's quite an undertaking (for me anyways), and if I get stuck I don't > want to keep people hanging. The text output was a part I was really > dreading doing, and I'd considered just building text with the standard BF > number loops (very inefficient), just to get something out. Use anything you want of it (it's public domain), though I doubt it's very good, e.g. I'm not sure if my multiplying the floor by the ceiling of x does any more good than x * x. int_of_float simply truncates, though, so if a value is 7.8999 x will be 7, giving us 7 * 7 with the x * x way and 7 * 8 with my method. I'm not sure of what's better overall. > > The project will be open source and once (if) I finish version 1.0 it will > be opened up for modification and improvement. The current command set > will not be able to easily compile itself (yes, the compiler itself is > written in basic, but more advanced basic =). > > Just for some background, I was going to scrap the project when > inspiration hit and I found a way to properly implement GOTO and GOSUB in > all their evil Basic "goto considered harmful" ways :) I sure hope I can > hurry up and get this out. With a nifty text gen in place it would be > even better! Tonight I figured out = < > <= >= <> so I'm still making > progress. > > I can't say that I understand the ocaml language, so I am having > difficulty with the program.. I'd like to compile it for MS-DOS so I can > see how your program works, or could you possibly add a few more comments > so I can follow the source? I believe you can get Ocaml for Windows or DOS, if you use Cygwin, you'd be better off checking http://caml.inria.fr. Ok, I included a copy with some comments, though be warned: I don't usually write comments other than at the beginning (or I do, look at them five minutes later, think they seem extremely stupid and delete them again), so this was quite a challenge for me. I think this is proof enough that comments only obfuscate code even more :-) It might be easier if I'd just rewrite it in C (or maybe pseudo-code). > > Thanks > Jeff > Markus -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- File: bf-gen-text.ml (* bf-gen-text.ml An Ocaml Program to generate brainfuck code that outputs a given ascii text using an efficient Mark and Sweep algorithm (Called bf-gen-text for lack of a worse name) WARNING: Generated BF-code is only *almost* ENSI-compliant! Recommended Usage: bf-gen-text < in_file > out_file.bf (Compile with: ocamlopt/ocamlc -o bf-gen-text bf-gen-text.ml) As public domain as possibly possible! *) (* this is a mutable variable (a reference) it simply represents a[0] *) let cur = ref 0 (* this will output n '+'s when n is positive and n '-' otherwise *) let inc_or_dec n = let out_c = if n < 0 then '-' else '+' in (* that following recursive function is equivalent to: for i = 0 to n do print_char out_c *) let rec aux i = if i = 0 then () else (print_char out_c; aux (i - 1)) in aux (abs n) (* this will generate a >+...[<+/-...>-]< construct n is the number to go up or (if it's negative ) down by *) let loop n = let x = (* if n is negative, x should be the square root of |n| and then go back to negative *) if n < 0 then (-. (sqrt (float_of_int (abs n)))) (* otherwise x should simply be the square root of n *) else sqrt (float_of_int n) in (* y is the absolute value of x rounded down to a whole number and z is x rounded up to a whole number *) let y = abs (int_of_float (floor x)) and z = int_of_float (ceil x) in print_char '>'; inc_or_dec y; (* print '>' and y '+'s *) print_string "[<"; inc_or_dec z; (* print "[<" and z '+' or '-'s *) print_string ">-]<"; (* since we can only use integers in bf, the floor sqrt (y) and ceil sqrt (z) probably won't have exaclty gotten n steps. let m = y * z in let o = (n - m) in (* print o '+' or '-'s to get there. Increase cur by m and o *) inc_or_dec o; cur := !cur + m + o let gen c = (* !cur means the current value of the reference cur *) let diff = (c - !cur) in (* just prints a '.' if !cur is already the needed value *) if diff = 0 then print_char '.' (* if we need to inc- or decrease by less than 13, we'll just go ahead and print that many '+' or '-'s *) else if (abs diff) < 13 then (inc_or_dec diff; cur := !cur + diff; print_char '.') (* otherwise we use the loop construct *) else (loop diff; print_char '.') (* the program starts here *) let _ = (* this will read a character from stdin and pass it to gen until it receives EOF *) while true do try gen (int_of_char (input_char stdin)) with End_of_file -> exit 0 done ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 12:59:17 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [ENSI BF] Corrected grammar and programs On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: > > Hi, > > Thank you for making a BF text gen program! > > Can I use your text generation routines in a project I am working on > (BFBasic -> BF compiler)? I haven't posted it out to everyone because > it's quite an undertaking (for me anyways), and if I get stuck I don't > want to keep people hanging. The text output was a part I was really > dreading doing, and I'd considered just building text with the standard BF > number loops (very inefficient), just to get something out. Hi, I just found a "BF Assembler", bfa, at http://koeln.ccc.de/projekte/brainfuck/index-e.html and immediately felt the need to compare it with bf-gen-text :-) (You might want to have a look at that for your BFBasic compiler... it generates better bf-code than bf-gen-text, so you might want to use its routines.) I decided to simply test hello world. Here was the input to bfa: PUT "Hello World!\n" and here the input to bf-gen-text: Hello World! Here's the resulting bf-code from bfa: >++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.>++++[<+++++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>++++++[<------------- >-]<-.>+++++[<+++++++++++>-]<.>++++[<++++++>-]<.+++.------.--------.>++++++[<--- -------->-]<-.>+++[<------->-]<--.---------- and here's the resulting bf-code from bf-gen-text: >++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.>+++++[<++++++>-]<-.+++++++..+++.>+++++++++[<-------->- ]<-------.>+++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.>++++[<+++++>-]<++++.+++.------.--------.>++++ +++++[<-------->-]<+++++.>+++++[<---->-]<---. So bfa beat bf-gen-text by one instruction, though for some reason bfa put 10 bogus minuses (at least, I couldn't find out what the purpose is supposed to be) at the end. Thus, not counting those bfa beat bf-gen-text by 11 instructions. Some things to note: * bfa's source code is commented just as much as bf-gen-text was in the beginning (read: not at all) :-) * bfa's loops are a lot better than bf-gen-text's * there was mention of bfa optimizing the bf-code, somewhere... is that why? * in any case, there's definitely need for a bf-optimizer :-) * another optimization I just thought of would be to calculate when it would make more sense to put [-] and start up from 0. Neither bfa nor bf-gen-text currently do this. I also tested it on a little larger text (you must know, I can be very uncreative at times!): Hello World! How are you, by the way? How's life? See ya! and the corresponding bfa file for the text The results were: bf-gen-text needed 1174 instructions bfa needed 1147 instructions That's a difference of only 27 instructions! bfa did add those 10 bogus minuses at the end of the bf-code again, though... so that should be a difference of 37 instructions. > > Thanks > Jeff > Markus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 08:28:13 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: [lang] Re: [ENSI BF] Corrected grammar and programs On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, markus.kliegl wrote: > Ok, I included a copy with some comments, though be warned: I don't > usually write comments other than at the beginning (or I do, look at them > five minutes later, think they seem extremely stupid and delete them > again), so this was quite a challenge for me. I think this is proof enough > that comments only obfuscate code even more :-) Looks good, I don't think I should have a problem figuring it out now. Thanks! Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 00:12:04 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke Subject: [lang] Re: [list-meta] Whatever happened to... > 2) The Essies, categories 2 and 3? We appear to have the full > complement of judges back, Not sure... we haven't heard of John Colagioia for a long time... Bet he went away on a world tour the very day Bem came back ? > and I know that there was at least one > entry (my first foray into the world of Befunge, no less). The (maybe?) unique competitor in category 3 is glad to meet the (maybe?) unique competitor in category 2 ! (Or do you compete in cat 3 too ?) > Is there > any chance of seeing the results, or shall I just release my killer > Befunge app to the world anyway? My killer Thue app is already released (Go to then click on the "esoteric" link, and look for a "Brainf*ck interpreter in Thue". Yes, it's complex, but Homestead makes it that way. Thanks Gerson for pointing out the problem.) Frédéric vdP ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 17:19:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Ben Olmstead Subject: [lang] Re: [list-meta] Whatever happened to... On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, [iso-8859-1] Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote: > > 2) The Essies, categories 2 and 3? We appear to have the full > > complement of judges back, > > Not sure... we haven't heard of John Colagioia for a long time... Bet > he went away on a world tour the very day Bem came back ? Figures. But it doesn't matter... > > and I know that there was at least one > > entry (my first foray into the world of Befunge, no less). > > The (maybe?) unique competitor in category 3 is glad to meet the (maybe?) > unique competitor in category 2 ! (Or do you compete in cat 3 too ?) =2E..I received exactly one entry in each of categories 2 and 3, so you both win by default. Both entries are sitting in my mailbox here; I can post them or you can. Ben Olmstead bem@mad.scientist.com Inertia: Simple. Addictive. Free. http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/games/inertia/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 04:47:19 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] ENSI standardization "markus.kliegl" wrote: > Feel free to join ENSI (at a rate of 2000 Zorkmids per year)! 1500 Zorkmids for non-members. Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > Ha ha! I'm going to revise the standard! This is ENSI Brainfuck, v1.2: > > 9. The '[' command > This command begins a loop. For the definition of loops, see the > comprehension standard (ENSI-1994/10/28-02:34:55). > > 10. The ']' command > This command ends a loop. For the definition of loops, see the > apprehension standard (ENSI-1994/10/27-15:04:27). 9. The '[' command See the ']' command. 10. The ']' command See the '[' command. Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > Steve Mosher wrote: > > On Fri, 01 Jun 2001, Russell Bornschlegel pressed some keys and this came out: > > > This Message Brought To You By The Church of /dev/null > > Hm? I always thought that we all came from /dev/urandom - the return to > > /dev/null thing is, of course, spot on. > Pish! Pish and tosh! Where do you think /dev/urandom came from? > Besides, the fossil record shows that /dev/null is far older than > /dev/urandom, and that's not even counting the period of time > before /dev/null could be named. Well if /dev/null was around before /dev/urandom then how did it randomly get assigned the name '/dev/null' anyway? CLEARLY /dev/urandom was here first, cleverly hiding /dev/null (and probably the rest of UNIX) from everybody's sight. And pray tell what of chargen?!?!? > See, this is why the lang vs. misc thing is gonna be a problem. Finish this sentence: "I read this mailing list because..." A: "I want to advance the cause of computer science." B: "I'm looking for the next hot idea off which to get rich, quick." C: "I'm bored and looking for a giggle or maybe just to BLOW MY MIND." Brian Raiter wrote: > > Define /dev/null as an "end user". > *forehead slap* > Boy, I feel stupid now. I should have thought of that. "It's the end of the user as we know it..." (Sorry.) "markus.kliegl" wrote: > There seems to be a need for a standard license. I propose the EGPL (ENSI > General Public License / Eris the Goddess' Primitive License what, http://www.catseye.mb.ca/gwadfc/epl.cgi not good enough for ya? :) Chris -- Go down Derrida's road as far as you want... it doesn't seem to end. cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 05:00:58 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Re: [list-meta][SETI Puzzle] Whatever happened to... Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > Matthew Westcott wrote: > > I notice that some recent topics seem to have gone astray recently, > > no doubt partly due to the change of venue. So, whatever happened > > to... > > 1) The SETI puzzle? > There's still a lot of it to go; are people ready for the next > installment? You mean there was more after the virtruvian? (which, btw, could very well lead an alien race into thinking we have four arms and four legs if we sent one to *them* ;-) Ben Olmstead wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, [iso-8859-1] Frédéric van der Plancke wrote: > > > 2) The Essies, categories 2 and 3? We appear to have the full > > > complement of judges back, > > Not sure... we haven't heard of John Colagioia for a long time... Bet > > he went away on a world tour the very day Bem came back ? > Figures. But it doesn't matter... John lost a game of Sink and I haven't seen it since. I discovered I have very little patience for basisless negativity. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ Feel free to call *that* a fallacy, but understand that you'll have to show how exactly (without using any of the fallacies listed within it, of course) before I'll start to believe you :) > ...I received exactly one entry in each of categories 2 and 3, so you > both win by default. Both entries are sitting in my mailbox here; I can > post them or you can. So who was the mystery judge supposed to be anyway? I'm dying to know. > Inertia: Simple. Addictive. Free. Ain't it the truth! Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:04:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Ben Olmstead Subject: Re: [list-meta][SETI Puzzle] Whatever happened to... On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > > Matthew Westcott wrote: > > > I notice that some recent topics seem to have gone astray recently, > > > no doubt partly due to the change of venue. So, whatever happened > > > to... > > > 1) The SETI puzzle? > > There's still a lot of it to go; are people ready for the next > > installment? > > You mean there was more after the virtruvian? (which, btw, could very > well lead an alien race into thinking we have four arms and four legs if > we sent one to *them* ;-) What's the SETI puzzle? > Ben Olmstead wrote: > > On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, [iso-8859-1] Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote: > > > > 2) The Essies, categories 2 and 3? We appear to have the full > > > > complement of judges back, > > > Not sure... we haven't heard of John Colagioia for a long time... Bet > > > he went away on a world tour the very day Bem came back ? > > Figures. But it doesn't matter... > > John lost a game of Sink and I haven't seen it since. I discovered I > have very little patience for basisless negativity. > > http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ > > Feel free to call *that* a fallacy, but understand that you'll have to > show how exactly (without using any of the fallacies listed within it, > of course) before I'll start to believe you :) Hey, #4 is the basis of all scientific reasoning. > > ...I received exactly one entry in each of categories 2 and 3, so you > > both win by default. Both entries are sitting in my mailbox here; I ca= n > > post them or you can. > > So who was the mystery judge supposed to be anyway? I'm dying to know. David Madore, who I haven't heard a thing from since, oh, about the *start* of the essies. > > Inertia: Simple. Addictive. Free. > > Ain't it the truth! Yah, I just can't keep myself from running into walls these days. Fortunately, I don't mass too much, so the impact isn't too bad. Ben Olmstead bem@mad.scientist.com Inertia: Simple. Addictive. Free. http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/games/inertia/ ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [BF vs. Python] Can I join the fun ? [*] Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:51:55 +0100 import sys z,x,y= "}{|}A|k{|kA|}=BE1)|BF}))|$}:~pI~/;@Go{H%{&A?|if }:~pJ"\ "IJ-1~#>=0:GoAG@HG;o{G;%-I&{?|m,kJ,j=C?;/@~o{~D:Gl[c]("\ ")?","G$p:%~;%~;el!]':p%break~;![':p%#':c,'<':d,'-': b,'+':a,',':e,'.':f,'[':g,']':h} i() * requires Python 2.0 or higher ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [BF] for beginning programmers Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 19:15:49 +0100 void brainfuck(char* p) { int x,h,m[64000]; char c,*q=p; a: if (!*q) U: goto J; if (c=*q++) V: goto r; r: if (c!=43) W: goto u; if (m[x]++||~m[x]) u: goto f; f: if (c!=45) X: goto g; s: if (m[x]--||1) Y: goto a; g: if (c!=62) goto j; if (x++||x+1) Z: goto a; j: if (c!=60) L: goto b; t: if (x--||!x) T: goto L; b: if (c!=44) goto i; if (m[x]=getchar()) K: goto G; i: if (c!=46) goto d; if (putchar(m[x])) I: goto a; d: if (c!=91||m[x]) M: goto e; if(h=1||1) goto v; l: if (!h||!*q) goto k; if(c=*q++) goto B; B: if(c!=91) goto A; if(h++) goto A; A: if(c!=93) goto v; if(h--) v: goto l; k: if(q++) N: goto M; e: if(c!=93||!m[x]) G: goto H; if(!*q--||c) O: goto z; z: if(h=1) C: goto D; o: if(!h||!*q) H: goto I; if(c=*--q) S: goto F; F: if (c!=91) R: goto y; if(h--||c) E: goto C; y: if(c!=93) Q: goto D; if(h++||h^-1) P: goto E; D: goto o; J: goto n; n:; } ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [BF] Question for the group Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 20:01:12 +0100 Has anybody written a BF interpreter in BF ? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:34:31 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: Re: [BF] Question for the group On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote: > Has anybody written a BF interpreter in BF ? Yes.. I have one, written by Frans Faase. If you'd like a copy just let me know. It's 6591 bytes. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 20:42:56 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] Question for the group On Sun, 3 Jun 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote: > Has anybody written a BF interpreter in BF ? > Yes, Frans Faase has, see: http://home.wxs.nl/~faase009/Ha_bf_inter.html Markus ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [NT/2K] DevStudio Code Wizard Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:16:56 +0100 > I have written my own, template based Code Generation Wizard > for DevStudio. > > I don't have problems with compiler flags because these > templates turn of > > all optimizations. (Oddly, the *ONLY* switch my Code Generator > cannot set is > > "Build Browse Information", because it is stored in the binary .NCB/.OPT > > files). > > Hmmm. Distribute that with good documentation and you'll be a hero. Well, with that kind of documentation I'll probably not be any time soon. http://www.p-nand-q.com/PWizard32.zip ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Quicksort in Python] A contest Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:05:37 +0100 Goal: Write the most inefficient Quicksort algorithm in Python. On my machine (a Dual PIII 1Ghz with 512 mb Ram) sorting 2000 elements with the default algorithm takes 0.08 sec. Sorting them with the following python code takes ... TADA ... 151.68 seconds = 2 minutes, 31 seconds. ------------------- >8 cut here 8< ----------------------------- import sys funcs = range(10) def A(_,o): _[3]=_[5]() def B(_,o): o[_[2]]=_[9]() def C(_,o): _[3]=_[7]() def D(_,o): o[_[1]]=_[14]() def E(_,o): _[1]=_[4]() def F(_,o): _[2]=_[6]() def G(_,o,O): if _[O[0]]():return O[-1](_,o) or 1 def H(o, start, stop): _=[o[stop],[lambda x,y:x+y,lambda x,y:x-y,lambda x, y:y|1,0,0][1](start,funcs[4](range(funcs[3](), len(o[:])))),stop,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0] for i in range(4,19): _[i]=lambda _=_,o=o,s="reduce([lambda x,y:x+y,lambda "\ "x,y:x-y,lambda x,y:y|1,0,0][0],[_[1],funcs[4]("\ "range(eval(\"funcs[3]()\"),_[10]()))])$funcs[4"\ "](range(eval(\"funcs[3]()\"),_[10]()))$[lambda"\ " x,y:x+y,lambda x,y:x-y,lambda x,y:y|1,0,0][1]"\ "(_[2],funcs[4](range(funcs[3](),_[10]())))$fun"\ "cs[4](range(funcs[3](),_[10]()))$range(_[10]()"\ "*_[10]())$o[:][_[1]]$len(o[:])$not _[3]$_[1]=="\ "_[2]$o[:][_[1]]>_[0]$o[:][_[2]]$o[_[2]]<_[0]$_"\ "[2]==_[1]$_[11]() and not E(_,0) and not G(_,o"\ ",[12,A]) and not G(_,o,[13,B])$_[11]() and not"\ " F(_,_) and not G(_,o,[16,C]) and not G(_,o,[1"\ "5,D])".split('$')[:][i-4]:eval("eval('eval(s)')") while _[11](): while _[17](): pass while _[18](): pass o[_[2]] = _[0] return _[2] def quicksort(list,start,stop): exec('funcs[3] = lambda:reduce([lambda x,y:x+y,lambda x,y'\ ':x-y,lambda x,y:y|1,0,0][1],[[lambda x,y:x+y,lambda'\ ' x,y:x-y,lambda x,y:y|1,0,0][2](200,200)]*2)\nfuncs'\ '[4] = lambda x:reduce(lambda x,y:y%2,range(eval("re'\ 'duce([lambda x,y:x+y,lambda x,y:x-y,lambda x,y:y|1,'\ '0,0][2],[len(o[:]),len(o[:])])"),eval("reduce([lamb'\ 'da x,y:x+y,lambda x,y:x-y,lambda x,y:y|1,0,0][2],[l'\ 'en(o[:]),len(o[:])])")+((len(o)and 3)or 3)))\nif st'\ 'art < stop:\n\tsplit = H(list, start, stop)\n\tquic'\ 'ksort(list, start, [lambda x,y:x+y,lambda x,y:x-y,l'\ 'ambda x,y: y|1,0,0][1](split,funcs[4](funcs[3]())))'\ '\n\tquicksort(list, reduce([lambda x,y:x+y,lambda x'\ ',y:x-y,lambda x,y:y|1,0,0][0],[split,funcs[4](funcs'\ '[3]())]), stop)\n') # test code: 20 elements to sort list = [] import whrandom,time for i in range(2000): list.append(whrandom.randint(1,100)) start = time.clock() quicksort(list,0,len(list)-1) print "Sorting took %.2f" % (time.clock() - start) # just a test loop to see if everything *is* sorted element = -1 for i in list: if i >= element: element = i else: print "FUNK DAT: %20s" % str(i) break ------------------- >8 cut here 8< ----------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:59:47 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Re: [list-meta][SETI Puzzle] Whatever happened to... Ben Olmstead wrote: > What's the SETI puzzle? Russell was posting messages sent by aliens to the mailing list. Or possibly not by aliens but possibly by some guy at SETI pretending to be an alien. Or maybe that's just the cover story. > > http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ > Hey, #4 is the basis of all scientific reasoning. #28, be more specific :) Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 21:26:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Ben Olmstead Subject: Re: [list-meta][SETI Puzzle] Whatever happened to... On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > Ben Olmstead wrote: > > What's the SETI puzzle? > > Russell was posting messages sent by aliens to the mailing list. Or > possibly not by aliens but possibly by some guy at SETI pretending to be > an alien. Or maybe that's just the cover story. > > > > http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ > > Hey, #4 is the basis of all scientific reasoning. > > #28, be more specific :) Oops. I meant example #4: 1. If Portland is the capital of Maine, then it is in Maine. 2. Portland is in Maine. C: Portland is the capital of Maine. Or: Theory: If it is raining, then when I go outside, I will get wet. Experiment: Walk outside. Result: I am wet. Conclusion: It is raining. Or, more formally: ((A -> B) && B) -> A Ben Olmstead bem@mad.scientist.com Inertia: Simple. Addictive. Free. http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/games/inertia/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 10:36:19 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [list-meta][SETI Puzzle] Whatever happened to... On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Ben Olmstead wrote: > 1. If Portland is the capital of Maine, then it is in Maine. > 2. Portland is in Maine. > C: Portland is the capital of Maine. This is a clear fallacy. However, I dislike this being called this form, generalised, a fallacy, because it is the base of almost all productive reasoning. If the reasoning was not fruitful, why would people be tempted to use it? (The former sentence nicely also demonstrates the creative uses of "if".) One problem is that that implication is a relatively weak notion and has hardly anything to do with "if". Implication should be read out as something like "it is possible that in every case where A holds, also B holds". If you're exhaustively checking out truth tables, you can leave "it's possible that" away (because you're checking every possible world). The second, and more important, problem is that people do their reasoning quite stochastically anyway. Even the clear case, (a -> b) & a => b, is originally based on probabilistic analysis on the world. Of course, it's a clear consequence of the _definition_ of propositional logic (symbolic or mathematical -- but symbolic PL's almost always have it as an axiom), but that it has anything to do with the world is based on inductive generalisation. Let's take an example of good "fallacious" reasoning: 1. If the sun ceases to shine, the world will freeze and there is no light. 2. The world has freezed and there is no light. 3. The sun has probably ceased to shine. Reasoning like this is based on an extension on the notion of "if": it has unsaid premises like "most things in the world do _not_ cause the world to freese and light to vanish". Any way, reasoning like this is very useful but practically impossible to formalise on the weak concept of implication. The third problem is that in natural language, words interact with each other in such a way that there are always cases that cannot be formalised the normal way. Let's take an example: 1. If the poor get upset enough, they will take over. 2. If the poor take over, they will become happy (not upset). This is formalised as: 1. A -> B 2. B -> ~A 3. A -> ~A (1,2 HS) 4. A -> A (axiom) 5. A -> (A & ~A) (3,4 C&I) 6. ~A (5 RAA) So the conclusion is, the poor will not get upset. This is (at least, to me) clearly a fallacy -- that is, to get such a conclusion from those premises. > Theory: If it is raining, then when I go outside, I will get wet. > Experiment: Walk outside. > Result: I am wet. > Conclusion: It is raining. > > Or, more formally: > ((A -> B) && B) -> A Good example. But isn't it, in scientific thought, often the point to prove the _theory_, not the consequence? Panu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 03:23:02 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Re: [list-meta][SETI Puzzle] Whatever happened to... Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Ben Olmstead wrote: > > 1. If Portland is the capital of Maine, then it is in Maine. > > 2. Portland is in Maine. > > C: Portland is the capital of Maine. > This is a clear fallacy. However, I dislike this being called this form, > generalised, a fallacy, because it is the base of almost all productive > reasoning. If the reasoning was not fruitful, why would people be tempted > to use it? (The former sentence nicely also demonstrates the creative uses > of "if".) It can be fruitful without being sound. I found if you "hold a mirror up to" the Nizkor site you get a pretty good starting point for "rules for writing poetry" - inductive logic. But you can't expect to convince someone with inductive logic. > The second, and more important, problem is that people do their reasoning > quite stochastically anyway. Quite so. Ben's experiment has only one trial. If one were to do it (say) five times in a row, one might conclude that when one gets wet outside, 80% of the time, it's because it's raining. But I think it's to an extent inescapable, because that's how the brain works. If you step outside and get wet, the first thing that will go through your head is likely "it must be raining." Whereas it could just be your neighbour's poorly-aimed water sprinkler. Or something worse. But the probability for that will be lower and the thought will only be come across that much later. Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ From: "Matthew Westcott" Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:17:57 +0100 Subject: [lang] [Befunge] Sokoban Here's the Befunge program I put together for the Essies - a version of Sokoban, the pushing-boxes-about game. Matthew Westcott -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- Desc: Text from file 'sokoban.txt' Sokoban v1.0 ------------ Copyright 2000 Matthew Westcott This program may be freely distributed by anyone. This is a version of the well-known Sokoban game, written in Befunge-93. You are the warehouse keeper, represented by 'x', and you may move about using the keys 2,4,6,8 (corresponding to the positions on the numeric keypad). The object of the game is to push all the boxes ('o') onto the targets ('0' - a box on a target is represented by '@'). However, you can only push one box at a time. To play the game, start up your Befunge interpreter and enter a sequence of moves. For example, the following steps will solve the simple puzzle provided with the program: mtfi sokoban.bf 848862242664 888886624 84422226244 6888884426 Obviously the game is infinitely more fun when played in an 'interactive' Befunge environment, such as Visual Befunge by Wim Rijnders. However, it may take a while for the program to locate the player's starting position if it isn't near the bottom-right corner of the area. The control keys can be changed by replacing the "2", "4", "6" and "8" in the fourth line of the program. The playing area can be edited without any changes to the program. The number in the top-right corner is the number of targets which need to be filled (not counting any with a box already on them). Strange things can happen if you move beyond the edges of the playing area... especially if you start pushing bits of the program around :-) Matthew Westcott 2000-11-12 gasman@raww.org -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- Desc: Text from file 'sokoban.bf' 589*+0g"0"-25**689*+0g"0"-+50p v # Sokoban - (c) Matthew Westcott 2000 # 03 83*>10p99*2->:00p10gg"x"-#v_v p01g<> ## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # << ^ -1g01_^#!: -1g00< > v # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # |-"8"_v#-"2":_v#-"6":_v#-"4":~< <0 # > 1 0>$1+2 0>$2+3%\0>$1+3%40v $4<# v -"0"gp04:-1+g#v_"X">30g40gv0>40g10g+1-g:"#"-!|0 # 0>"x" ^v1g00p<^1g04p03:_v#`\ "9"<0 # v:g-2++<>0gg"X"-#v_"0">00 g10gp30g^ # 4# ^g04g04g0<>" " ^v3< # >8*-#v_$"o" v ^1-1+g0< >00g30g30v # # >"0"-#v_v> ^v01-2++g< # ^>#$" " 0#"@"50g1-50p^>g40g40gv # v_^#!-"@"g-1+g04g01:-1+g03g00p-2++< # >"0"50g1+50p>\10g40g+1-p30g02050g |# >,#-:#3_@#"a\rx#glg#lw$Zhoo#Grqh$"0<# ##################################### ######## # # # o@0o # # # # o# ### ### #0 x 0# ######## ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:07:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Ben Olmstead Subject: Re: [list-meta][SETI Puzzle] Whatever happened to... On Tue, 5 Jun 2001, Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Ben Olmstead wrote: > > 1. If Portland is the capital of Maine, then it is in Maine. > > 2. Portland is in Maine. > > C: Portland is the capital of Maine. > > This is a clear fallacy. However, I dislike this being called this form, > generalised, a fallacy, because it is the base of almost all productive > reasoning. If the reasoning was not fruitful, why would people be tempted > to use it? (The former sentence nicely also demonstrates the creative uses > of "if".) This form is a fallacy in formal logic, as opposed to inductive reasoning. > One problem is that that implication is a relatively weak notion and has > hardly anything to do with "if". Implication should be read out as > something like "it is possible that in every case where A holds, also B > holds". If you're exhaustively checking out truth tables, you can leave > "it's possible that" away (because you're checking every possible world). "In every case where A holds, B also holds" is the definition of "If A, then B". > The second, and more important, problem is that people do their reasoning > quite stochastically anyway. Even the clear case, (a -> b) & a => b, is > originally based on probabilistic analysis on the world. Of course, it's a > clear consequence of the _definition_ of propositional logic (symbolic or > mathematical -- but symbolic PL's almost always have it as an axiom), but > that it has anything to do with the world is based on inductive > generalisation. Let's take an example of good "fallacious" reasoning: Well... (a -> b) & a => b actually reduces to (~a & b) & a => b in most logical systems (such as PL); however, yes, it can be quickly reduced to an axiomatic state. Logic, alone, can't do anything. Logic is a tool--a model--and nothing more. It is based on observed behaviour of the world, and is used to predict future behaviour or potential behaviour. > 1. If the sun ceases to shine, the world will freeze and there is no light. > 2. The world has freezed and there is no light. > 3. The sun has probably ceased to shine. I don't really agree with this, as there are many other possibilities, all of which are approximately equally likely (such as 'a big meteor has hit the land somewhere, spewing trillions of megatons of dust into the sky, blotting out the sun'). However, you are correct in that this is an *inductive* argument, and, for the time being, I'll go with it. > Reasoning like this is based on an extension on the notion of "if": it has > unsaid premises like "most things in the world do _not_ cause the world to > freese and light to vanish". Any way, reasoning like this is very useful > but practically impossible to formalise on the weak concept of > implication. It has nothing to do with 'if', and everything to do with the unspoken premise 'every other possible explanation for the sun ceasing to shine is vastly more improbable'. 'Most other things do not cause the world to freeze and light to vanish' is not a valid argument: I could say that a giant bat eating the sun must be true, simply because most other things wouldn't explain the sudden darkness and cold. Let's take another example: 1. If this person is Ben Olmstead, he has a key to my house. 2. This person has a key to my house. 3. This person is Ben Olmstead. This is wrong, even though 'Most people other than Ben Olmstead do not have a key to my house' is true. There are about four or five people who have a key to my house. > The third problem is that in natural language, words interact with each > other in such a way that there are always cases that cannot be formalised > the normal way. Let's take an example: > > 1. If the poor get upset enough, they will take over. > 2. If the poor take over, they will become happy (not upset). > > This is formalised as: > > 1. A -> B > 2. B -> ~A > 3. A -> ~A (1,2 HS) > 4. A -> A (axiom) > 5. A -> (A & ~A) (3,4 C&I) > 6. ~A (5 RAA) > > So the conclusion is, the poor will not get upset. This is (at least, to > me) clearly a fallacy -- that is, to get such a conclusion from those > premises. This is because basic propositional logic fails to account for time. This is a known problem with basic propositional logic, and there are many logical systems which do handle time. > > Theory: If it is raining, then when I go outside, I will get wet. > > Experiment: Walk outside. > > Result: I am wet. > > Conclusion: It is raining. > > > > Or, more formally: > > ((A -> B) && B) -> A > > Good example. But isn't it, in scientific thought, often the point to > prove the _theory_, not the consequence? Yes, you prove the theory--by determining what the theory implies, then *testing* the implications. Real World Example: 1. General Relativity says that light is bent by gravity. 2. Observation during total solar eclipse shows that the sun has bent light in its gravitational field. 3. General Relativity says that the speed of light is constant. 4. No measurement of the speed of light has differred by an amount greater than observational error. ... n. General Relativity is true. There is no experiment you can ever create to prove General Relativity-- you can make experiments to *demonstrate* General Relativity, or to *disprove* General Relativity--but not to prove it directly. This is equivalent to: ((A -> B) & B) & ((A -> C) & C) & ((A -> D) & D) & ... => A Which is formally untrue, but useful in the real world. Scientific 'fact' does not have to be strictly true to be useful--look at, for example, Newtonian physics. Useful, but known to be untrue. The whole point is that science uses inductive reasoning, which is potentially--even probably, in most science--wrong, but usually good enough to use. Ben Olmstead bem@mad.scientist.com Inertia: Simple. Addictive. Free. http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/games/inertia/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:20:20 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke Subject: Re: [Quicksort in Python] A contest #Gerson Kurz wrote: #> #> Goal: Write the most inefficient Quicksort algorithm in Python. #> #> On my machine (a Dual PIII 1Ghz with 512 mb Ram) sorting 2000 elements with #> the default algorithm takes 0.08 sec. #> #> Sorting them with the following python code takes ... TADA ... 151.68 #> seconds = 2 minutes, 31 seconds. # #But, can we believe you when you state your algorithm is quicksort ? #Otherwise, this may beat you: """Probabilistic sorting algorithm. Sorts a list in finite time with probability one, assuming your random number generator is good enough. Has the nice property that no time is uselessly spent when the list is already sorted. """ def is_sorted(list): if not list: return 1 def check_lower(a,b): if a > b: raise Exception return b try: reduce(check_lower, list) return 1 except: return 0 import random def sort(list): n = len(list) while not is_sorted(list): i = random.randint(0, n-1) j = random.randint(0, n-1) list[i], list[j] = list[j], list[i] l = [7,3,1,9,2,2,2] sort(l) print l ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: AW: [Quicksort in Python] A contest Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 16:17:25 +0100 > Frederic van der Plancke wrote > """Probabilistic sorting algorithm. > Sorts a list in finite time with probability one, assuming > your random number generator is good enough. > """ OK, I give up, you win. Its been working for two hours now.... I see the definite need for a bad sort algorithms page on my website. (Maybe also a bad-ways-of-assigning-the-number-1-to-a-variable page ?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 15:40:57 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: Re: [Quicksort in Python] A contest At 10:20 am 6/6/2001 +0200, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote: >#Gerson Kurz wrote: >#> >#> Goal: Write the most inefficient Quicksort algorithm in Python. >#> >#> On my machine (a Dual PIII 1Ghz with 512 mb Ram) sorting 2000 elements >with >#> the default algorithm takes 0.08 sec. >#> >#> Sorting them with the following python code takes ... TADA ... 151.68 >#> seconds =3D 2 minutes, 31 seconds. ># >#But, can we believe you when you state your algorithm is quicksort ? >#Otherwise, this may beat you: > >"""Probabilistic sorting algorithm. > Sorts a list in finite time with probability one, assuming > your random number generator is good enough. > > Has the nice property that no time is uselessly spent when the list > is already sorted. >""" Ah, good old bogosort -- always kills 'em! K. --=20 Keith Gaughan Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. All your .sig are belong to us! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:57:36 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke Subject: Re: [Quicksort in Python] A contest Gerson Kurz wrote: > > > Frederic van der Plancke wrote > > """Probabilistic sorting algorithm. > > Sorts a list in finite time with probability one, assuming > > your random number generator is good enough. > > """ > > OK, I give up, you win. Its been working for two hours now.... I see the > definite need for a bad sort algorithms page on my website. Do I win ? Only if you accept non-working programs ! The fine print states: "assuming your random number generator is good enough." Are you sure whrandom is good enough ? I'm definitely not ! whrandom's state has (slightly less than) 48 bits: so the sequence of (i,j) swaps will be repeated with period p0 = at most 2^48. These p0 first swaps make up a permutation P of the N elements you're trying to sort. The order of P i.e. the maximum p1 such that P ^ p1 == identity is, I think (but haven't proven yet), <= 2^((N+1)/2) or so. So, after p0 * p1 swaps the sequence of permuted sequences that pass the "is_sorted" tests repeats itself. But p0 * p1 <= 2^((N+1)/2 + 48) is much lower than N! when N is large enough, so not all permutations of the initial list are tested; by a devilish enough choice of the initial list, the sorted list may never be tested, and the program runs forever. (When N -> oo the probability that the program does not terminate tends to one...) > (Maybe also a bad-ways-of-assigning-the-number-1-to-a-variable page ?) What about this: def one(): """returns one with probability one, assuming ....[as above]....""" import operator list = 10000 * [1] + 10000 * [0] sort(list) # using my function of course return list[12345] Frédéric vdP ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: WG: [Quicksort in Python] A contest + some list meta. Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:43:31 +0100 First off, the message: Well, Sorting 3 elements took 0.00 Sorting 4 elements took 0.00 Sorting 5 elements took 0.04 Sorting 6 elements took 0.02 Sorting 7 elements took 1.10 > > (Maybe also a bad-ways-of-assigning-the-number-1-to-a-variable page ?) > > What about this: > def one(): > """returns one with probability one, assuming ....[as above]....""" > import operator > list = 10000 * [1] + 10000 * [0] > sort(list) # using my function of course > return list[12345] > I had been thinking about something to do with threads, remember I'm on a dual CPU now so I should use the power of that machine to the full extent. Secondly: ARG! I'M GONNA KILL OUTLOOK, OR PANU, OR FINLAND, OR BOTH IF THAT WORD APPLIES TO THREE THINGS! THAT DAMN REPLY HEADER IS CORRECTLY EVALUATED BY OUTLOOK. See: Return-Path: Received: from oiva.sange.fi ([195.170.158.190]) by mailin00.sul.t-online.de with esmtp id 157eq5-0o3Av2a; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:03:17 +0200 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=oiva.sange.fi ident=esoteric) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 157ep5-000LQ4-00; Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:02:15 +0300 Received: with LISTAR (v0.129a; list misc); Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:02:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [194.78.208.93] (helo=decis.be) by oiva.sange.fi with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 157ep1-000LPy-00 for misc@esoteric.sange.fi; Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:02:11 +0300 Received: from decis.be [192.168.0.7] by decis.be [194.78.208.93] with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.5.3.R) for ; Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:57:44 +0200 Message-ID: <3B1E44E0.E10C283D@decis.be> Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:57:36 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Subject: Re: [Quicksort in Python] A contest References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010606153549.00ae9c30@mail.9netave.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.7 X-Return-Path: fvdp@decis.be X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi Reply-To: fvdp@decis.be <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< THIS is the reply address, rite ? X-listar-version: Listar v0.129a Sender: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi Errors-to: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi X-original-sender: fvdp@decis.be Precedence: bulk X-list: misc ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Python] Look Ma, No Lambda (well, the one at the bottom doesn't count Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:37:48 +0100 the following program will be using a max. of 418.512 K (that is 408MB) RAM if used with 500 threads instead of 10. For 10 threads: RESULT IN 105.97 SECONDS: 1. For 500 threads: Don't know, its still running (now 40 min). import thread, time, whrandom, mutex # alias for better code readability x = whrandom.randint def func(o): if o[-1]: o[1][0] -= 1 o[1].extend(o[2]) o[0].unlock() else: o[-2].extend([0]*50000) for j in range(0,len(o[-2])): o[-2][j] = x(0,100) while not o[-2][j]: o[-2][j] = x(0,100) o[-2][j] = x(0,100) / o[-2][j] o[0][1].lock(func,[o[0][1],o[0],o[1],1]) # this is just meant as a threadsafe way of finding out # how many threads are alive (if I understand the elaborate # manual that is the python documentation on this) def getcount(): result = [0] def i(result): global queue result[0] = queue[0] queue[1].unlock() queue[1].lock(i,result) return result[0] # testprogram: can be either single-or multithreaded. singlethreaded = 0 start = time.clock() if singlethreaded: queue = [-1,mutex.mutex()] func([queue,[],0]) else: queue = [10,mutex.mutex()] for i in range(queue[0]): thread.start_new_thread(func,([queue,[],0],)) time.sleep(1) while getcount() > 1: time.sleep(1) print getcount() result = reduce(lambda x,y:x+y,map(int,queue[4:]))/len(queue[4:])/2 print "RESULT IN %.2f SECONDS: %d" % (time.clock()-start,result) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:18:00 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer Subject: Re: [Python] Not really a quicksort either Hi, here is my first Python program ever, featuring an O(n^2) best case, O(2^n) worst case and O(2^n/n) (if all list elements are distinct) average case running time: import time, whrandom def sort(l): "sort list" e, i = 1e999, 0 # is there a way to specify the float constant # +inf in Python? while i < len(l): l[i], e, i = e, l[i], [i+1, 0] [e > l[i]] r = whrandom.randint cnt = 0 while cnt < 400: l = range(cnt) ## use this for random permutations: # for i in l: # j = r(0,i) # l[i], l[j] = l[j], l[i] # ll = l[:] t = time.clock() sort(l) print "%4d:%6.2fs " % (cnt, time.clock()-t) #, ll cnt = cnt+10 I originally thought of this algorithm when I tried to create a very small sorting algorithm for x86 processors. Gerson Kurz wrote: [...] > time.sleep(1) [...] Hmm, that gave me the idea of a "sleep sort": unsigned x[]; int count; while (count-- && fork()); if (count >= 0) { sleep(x[count]); printf("%d\n", x[count]); } Bertram -- `.oo' ,. (`-' '^\`-' ) Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes c-L'- an annual free trip around the Sun. ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Brainphyk ?] A Quine Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 15:16:40 +0100 I clearly have way too much time on my hand, so I wrote this lil quine that uses a modified version of my brainfuck interpreter (see last three lines). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CUT HERE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+++ import sys z,x,y= "}{|}A|k{|kA|}=BE1)|BF}))|$}:~pI~/;@Go{H%{&A?|if }:~pJ"\ "IJ-1~#>=0:GoAG@HG;o{G;%-I&{?|m,kJ,j=C?;/@~o{~D:Gl[c]("\ ")?","G$p:%~;%~;el!]':p%break~;![':p%#':c,'<':d,'-': b,'+':a,',':e,'.':f,'[':g,']':h} s=""" import sys z,x,y= "}{|}A|k{|kA|}=BE1)|BF}))|$}:~pI~/;@Go{H%{&A?|if }:~pJ"\\ "IJ-1~#>=0:GoAG@HG;o{G;%-I&{?|m,kJ,j=C?;/@~o{~D:Gl[c]("\\ ")?","G$p:%~;%~;el!]':p%break~;![':p%#':c,'<':d,'-': b,'+':a,',':e,'.':f,'[':g,']':h} u="" for c in s[:604]+'s='+3*'"'+s.replace(chr(92),chr(92)*2)+3*'"'+s[-118:]: u += '+'*ord(c)+'.'+'-'*ord(c) i() """ u="" for c in s[:604]+'s='+3*'"'+s.replace(chr(92),chr(92)*2)+3*'"'+s[-118:]: u += '+'*ord(c)+'.'+'-'*ord(c) i() ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: AW: [Python] Not really a quicksort either Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:02:26 +0100 Bertram Felgenhauer rote: > > Hi, > > e, i = 1e999, 0 # is there a way to specify the float constant > # +inf in Python? Well, 1e999 seems to be 1.#inf on x86, but you can always do float("1E"+"9"*42) (which of course will be written as eval("".join(map(chr,[49,69]+[57]*42))) by elite pythonistas in python 2.x (not in 1.x!)) To be *pretty* much on the safe side given the range of workstations mere humans have access to. And, you're remembering Douglas Adams at the same time. > Gerson Kurz wrote: > [...] > > time.sleep(1) > [...] > > Hmm, that gave me the idea of a "sleep sort": actually, the first sleep is to give the children threads a chance to startup, the looped sleep to nonblockingly wait for all the threads to finish. > unsigned x[]; > int count; > > while (count-- && fork()); > if (count >= 0) { > sleep(x[count]); > printf("%d\n", x[count]); > } you're a *nix guy ;) Can somebody explain me why *nix guys like fork() ? (as opposed to threads, that is). OK, I know the *nix multithread synchronisation functions are challenging in their own right, but then... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:28:29 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: AW: [Python] Not really a quicksort either Gerson Kurz wrote: > you're a *nix guy ;) Can somebody explain me why *nix guys like fork() ? (as > opposed to threads, that is). *nix guys like fork() because back when most personal computers didn't have any supported multithreading method at all, *nix had a portable fork(), but not portable threads. And during that period of time, *nix also had various forms of IPC, so shared memory wasn't an absolute necessity. -RB ------------------------------ From: "Cal Henderson" Subject: [Quicksort in Perl] (not) A contest Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:45:54 +0100 Similar to Frederic's Probabilistic sorting algorithm, but creates a random program to sort the list, then tests for a sorted list and loops. In perl since i'm not a python sort of person. ------------------snip------------------ my $file = 'sort.txt'; my $prog = 'sorter_sub.pl'; while(check_unsorted($file)){do_sorter($file,$prog);} ######################################### sub check_unsorted{ my ($file) = @_; print "Checking sort...\n"; open(F,$file) or die $!; my $v = ; my $unsorted = 0; chomp $v; while(){ chomp; if ($v>$_){$unsorted=1;} $v=$_; } close(F); return $unsorted; } ######################################### sub do_sorter{ my ($file) = @_; print "Trying something...\n"; open(F,">$prog") or die $!; print F qq|open(F,"$file") or dir \$!;\n|; print F qq|my \@a = ;\n|; print F qq|close(F);\n|; print F qq|chomp \@a;\n|; for(1..int(rand()*10)){ print F qq|my \$a = rand(\@a);\n|; print F qq|my \$b = rand(\@a);\n|; print F qq|(\$a[\$a],\$a[\$b]) = (\$a[\$b],\$a[\$a]);\n|; } print F qq|open(F,">$file") or dir \$!;\n|; print F qq|for(\@a){print F "\$_\\n";}\n|; print F qq|close(F);\n|; close(F); `$prog`; unlink $prog; } ------------------snip------------------ --cal ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Quine] and here is one in C/C++ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:34:42 +0100 Some things I'd like to point out: - uses nothing but ifs-n-gotos - the data source is not a mere copy of the text below, but "packed" #include "precomp.h" int m[64000]; char *q,*_= (char*) "#include \"precomp.h\"\n" "\n" "int m[64000];\n" "char *q,*_= (char*)\n" ";\n" "char *t[]={\"if(m[\",\"goto \",\"]==\",\n" "\";m[\",\"m[\",\"]=\",\"]]\",\"if(\"},c[]=\n" "{96,35,36,37,39,47,63,64,0};\n" "void main()\n" "{\n" "q=(char*)calloc(1,1024000);S:'4/'3/0;`5]!=1)#Pz;\n" "'0/9%1/34;#U;Pz:@!('5$2&&'4]<4))#Hc;@_[\n" "'3]++$10)'4]+=1;#Pz;Hc:@_['3?!=10)#Na;`5\n" "]!=1)#Zr%0/7%1/92;#U;Qc:'0/6%1/110;#U\n" ";Ow:'0/5%1/34;#U;Mu:'0/4%1/10;#U;Fs:@!_[\n" "'3]+1])#W%0/3%1/34;#U;Zr:'0/8%1/_['3?;\n" "#U;Rl:'4]+=1;#O;Na:@!('5$1&&_['3]$34)) #\n" "Ll%0/1%1/92;#U;V:'0/0%1/_['3?;#U;Ll:'7\n" "/0;`5]!=2)#Ig%6/0;Au:@_['3?!=c['6?)#Xl\n" "%8/0;Ng:'0/2%1/t['6?['8?;#U;An:'7/1%8]++\n" ";@t['6?['8?)#Ng;Xl:'6]++;@c['6?)#Au;Ig:if\n" "('7])#O%0/0%1/_['3?; #U;O:'3]++;@_['3?\n" "&&('5]||'4]<4))#Pz;W:`5]>=2)#Ku%5]++;#S;\n" "Ku:'0/32;Ly:''0]/0%0]--;`0])#Ly;#a;U:q['\n" "2]++/43;@--'1])#U;q['2]++/46; q['2]++/62;`0]\n" "==1)#V;`0$2)#An;`0$3)#Rl;`0$4)\n" "#Fs;`0$5)#Mu;@m [0$6 )#Ow;`0$7)\n" "#Qc;`0$8)#Rl;`0$9)#Pz;#O;a:@!*\n" "q)#J;`2/*q++)#r;r:`2]!=43)#u;`'0]+\n" "4]++ ||~''0]+4])u:#f;f:`2]!=45)#g;`'0]+4]\n" "--||1)#H;g:`2]!=62)#j;`0]++||'0]+1)P:#a\n" ";j:`2]!=60)L:#b;`0]--||!'0])#L;b:@ '2]!=\n" "44)#i;`'0]+4/getchar())#G;i:`2]!=46)#d\n" ";@ putchar(''0]+4]))I:#P;d:`2]!=91||''0]+4])M:\n" "#e;`1/1||1)Q:#v;l:@!'1]||!*q)#k;`2/\n" "*q++)#B;B:`2]!=91)R:#A;`1]++)#R;A:`2\n" "]!=93) #Q;`1]--)v:#l;k:@q++)#M;e:`2]!=\n" "93||!''0]+4])G:#H;@!*q--||'2])#z;z:`1/1)C:\n" "#D;o:@!'1]||!*q)H:#I;`2/*--q)#F;F:`2\n" "]!=91)#y;`1]--||'2])E:#C;y: `2]!=93)#C;\n" "`1]++||'1]^-1)#E;D:#o;J:#n;n:;\n" "}\n" ; char *t[]={"if(m[","goto ","]==", ";m[","m[","]=","]]","if("},c[]= {96,35,36,37,39,47,63,64,0}; void main() { q=(char*)calloc(1,1024000);S:m[4]=m[3]=0;if(m[5]!=1)goto Pz; m[0]=9;m[1]=34;goto U;Pz:if(!(m[5]==2&&m[4]<4))goto Hc;if(_[ m[3]++]==10)m[4]+=1;goto Pz;Hc:if(_[m[3]]!=10)goto Na;if(m[5 ]!=1)goto Zr;m[0]=7;m[1]=92;goto U;Qc:m[0]=6;m[1]=110;goto U ;Ow:m[0]=5;m[1]=34;goto U;Mu:m[0]=4;m[1]=10;goto U;Fs:if(!_[ m[3]+1])goto W;m[0]=3;m[1]=34;goto U;Zr:m[0]=8;m[1]=_[m[3]]; goto U;Rl:m[4]+=1;goto O;Na:if(!(m[5]==1&&_[m[3]]==34)) goto Ll;m[0]=1;m[1]=92;goto U;V:m[0]=0;m[1]=_[m[3]];goto U;Ll:m[7 ]=0;if(m[5]!=2)goto Ig;m[6]=0;Au:if(_[m[3]]!=c[m[6]])goto Xl ;m[8]=0;Ng:m[0]=2;m[1]=t[m[6]][m[8]];goto U;An:m[7]=1;m[8]++ ;if(t[m[6]][m[8]])goto Ng;Xl:m[6]++;if(c[m[6]])goto Au;Ig:if (m[7])goto O;m[0]=0;m[1]=_[m[3]]; goto U;O:m[3]++;if(_[m[3]] &&(m[5]||m[4]<4))goto Pz;W:if(m[5]>=2)goto Ku;m[5]++;goto S; Ku:m[0]=32;Ly:m[m[0]]=0;m[0]--;if(m[0])goto Ly;goto a;U:q[m[ 2]++]=43;if(--m[1])goto U;q[m[2]++]=46; q[m[2]++]=62;if(m[0] ==1)goto V;if(m[0]==2)goto An;if(m[0]==3)goto Rl;if(m[0]==4) goto Fs;if(m[0]==5) goto Mu;if(m [0]==6 )goto Ow;if(m[0]==7) goto Qc;if(m[0]==8)goto Rl;if(m[0]==9)goto Pz;goto O;a:if(!* q)goto J;if(m[2]=*q++)goto r;r:if(m[2]!=43)goto u;if(m[m[0]+ 4]++ ||~m[m[0]+4])u:goto f;f:if(m[2]!=45)goto g;if(m[m[0]+4] --||1)goto H;g:if(m[2]!=62)goto j;if(m[0]++||m[0]+1)P:goto a ;j:if(m[2]!=60)L:goto b;if(m[0]--||!m[0])goto L;b:if( m[2]!= 44)goto i;if(m[m[0]+4]=getchar())goto G;i:if(m[2]!=46)goto d ;if( putchar(m[m[0]+4]))I:goto P;d:if(m[2]!=91||m[m[0]+4])M: goto e;if(m[1]=1||1)Q:goto v;l:if(!m[1]||!*q)goto k;if(m[2]= *q++)goto B;B:if(m[2]!=91)R:goto A;if(m[1]++)goto R;A:if(m[2 ]!=93) goto Q;if(m[1]--)v:goto l;k:if(q++)goto M;e:if(m[2]!= 93||!m[m[0]+4])G:goto H;if(!*q--||m[2])goto z;z:if(m[1]=1)C: goto D;o:if(!m[1]||!*q)H:goto I;if(m[2]=*--q)goto F;F:if(m[2 ]!=91)goto y;if(m[1]--||m[2])E:goto C;y: if(m[2]!=93)goto C; if(m[1]++||m[1]^-1)goto E;D:goto o;J:goto n;n:; } ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 02:11:12 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: [sci] Re: the extent of formal logic > > On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Ben Olmstead wrote: > > > > This is a clear fallacy. However, I dislike this being called this form, > > generalised, a fallacy, because it is the base of almost all productive > > This form is a fallacy in formal logic, as opposed to inductive > reasoning. Not my point. I know inductive reasoning (but what all does inductive reasoning include?) allows (or rather, might allow) this, but the point is, patterns of language don't match to patterns of formal logic. > "In every case where A holds, B also holds" is the definition of "If A, > then B". Nothing near that. Usually "if A, then B" implies implication, but is a much stronger notion, giving a clue of causality, as well as a time relationship (thus sometimes even breaking the implication): B comes after A. Moreover, an if-sentence does not have a truth value when the condition is not met (or has one that is decided on the resultant "if" the condition was met, which calls for further deduction and / or logic of possible worlds). I'm casting most of your posting out because you really seem to be missing my point - or just disagreeing completely. My point is that human language is a complex and association-full system which _never_ corresponds to a clause of formal logic completely, and that you can't tell the validity of a given reasoning just by looking at the form of the clauses. For example, people often use the word "if" in the meaning of equivalence, making the following reasoning good (even in formal logic): 1. If somebody's "rich", he's got a lot of money. 2. Ben's got a lot of money. C. Ben's "rich". You can't call this a fallacy, even in formal logic, before you translate it to formal logic. And the translation phase is based on generalisation over the meanings of words. And in every case, the resulting scheme of formal logic _will_ lose information (like my tone when I say "rich"), so actually (and this is crucial) the working of formal logic on human arguments is *also* based on inductive studying of the world and of the language, especially the latter. I get the picture that you are willing to define the meanings of these certain words, which have been agreed upon to match to the operators of formal logic, by those operators. This will make those words empty of meaning, because then they match to abstractly defined mathematical entities that need not have anything to do with the world (and, as is the case with implication IMO, don't). The key to use the words is people's shared intuition on their meaning. Because this doesn't IMO match the meaning in formal logic, and because the meaning of words, like "if", depends on their context, I dislike using the patterns of _language_ as examples of fallacies. (You have to reach the agreement that they denote a certain clause of formal logic, first.) > Well... (a -> b) & a => b actually reduces to (~a & b) & a => b in most > logical systems (such as PL); however, yes, it can be quickly reduced to > an axiomatic state. The world is full of symbolic logical systems where a -> b and ~a V b are not interchangeable. See Kripke, constructivists, intuitionists. Hilbert system and natural deduction have many very questionable axioms which make them work as the truth table definition does (but remember, the truth table definition is _very_ non-restrictive). Usually, you can deduce a->b from ~aVb but not vice versa. > This is because basic propositional logic fails to account for time. But the premises didn't say anything about time, did they? All they said was "if" (and "will", which however would not be there had the sentences been in Finnish and was not relative to anything relevant to the deduction anyway). > greater than observational error. > ... > n. General Relativity is true. I don't think anybody ever made this claim. How theories are tested is usually a temporal business: in a case where some state of affairs B is not active, you do A and check for B to become active, to prove (A->B). I don't think you can picture this in PL. > This is equivalent to: > > ((A -> B) & B) & > ((A -> C) & C) & > ((A -> D) & D) & > ... > => A Nooo! You're saying scientific method is equal to (GR stands for "general relativity): (GR -> I breathe) & I breathe & (GR -> there is light) & there is light & (GR -> I need to eat) & I need to eat & ... => GR is true This way, the "truest" theory is the one that claims the biggest number of things that happen to be true. Ouch. > The whole point is that science uses inductive reasoning, which is > potentially--even probably, in most science--wrong, but usually good > enough to use. The whole point is that anything uses inductive reasoning, which is (if you can define it) very good (or has been so far), but only because it has no competitors whatsoever. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 02:23:52 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [Listmeta] A contest + some list meta. On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote: > Secondly: ARG! I'M GONNA KILL OUTLOOK, OR PANU, OR FINLAND, OR BOTH IF THAT > WORD APPLIES TO THREE THINGS! THAT DAMN REPLY HEADER IS CORRECTLY EVALUATED > BY OUTLOOK. See: Okay, so the problem is reply-to headers that get through, and Outlook that does not give you the possibility to reply to any other address? Great. Now I'm trying to strip the reply-to headers away, but I'm _not_ putting in a reply-to header of misc, because that will bring its own problems. Thank you for the sophisticated problem report. Serious things aside, I'm going to kill (users of) mail clients that put some other reply tag in the subject than "Re: ". Not. But they do irritate me. Panu ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Some Listmeta plus the worlds smallest Quine ???] A contest + some li Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 08:23:03 +0100 In python, a 0 byte large program can be executed without warning. That is, you create a file null.py that is 0 bytes large. You execute that. The file of course generates no output, thus, itself. (This only works in Win32: Win32 uses the filename to associate a file with a program (here:python), in *nix you would have to do that #! thing so it wouldn't be 0 bytes any longer). The worlds smallest quine ? I think so. > From Panu A Kalliokoski > Gesendet: Samstag, 9. Juni 2001 00:24 > > Okay, so the problem is reply-to headers that get through, and Outlook > that does not give you the possibility to reply to any other address? Come to think of it, it does. Its the "reply to all" button (Ctrl+Shift+R) but I'm kinda used to "Reply" and I am too old to learn new things. > Great. Now I'm trying to strip the reply-to headers away, but I'm _not_ > putting in a reply-to header of misc, because that will bring its own > problems. How so? Here is the old catseye lists' mail header: Return-Path: Received: from mail.rack03.pangea.ca ([207.161.251.66]) by mailin00.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 151utM-0xiMUKC; Mon, 21 May 2001 20:58:56 +0200 Received: (qmail 14047 invoked by uid 1035); 21 May 2001 18:59:28 -0000 Mailing-List: contact list-help@catseye.mb.ca; run by ezmlm Reply-To: list@catseye.mb.ca Delivered-To: mailing list list@catseye.mb.ca Received: (qmail 14040 invoked from network); 21 May 2001 18:59:27 -0000 Message-ID: <3B0964AC.55EF3BA5@catseye.mb.ca> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:55:40 -0500 From: Bishop Squarepeg Roundhole Organization: Greater Winnipeg Area Discordianism Fan Club X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-SYMPA (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-CA MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list@catseye.mb.ca Subject: [Python] Finland References: <20010521154149.14787.qmail@web10901.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See the reply-to field. > Serious things aside, I'm going to kill (users of) mail clients that put > some other reply tag in the subject than "Re: ". Not. But they do irritate > me. RE: is short for "reply", AW: is short for "Antwort", which is the german word for "reply". Outlook German seems unable to change that. But I agree, a consistent naming would be preferable. ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [RE: in outlook] Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 08:49:45 +0100 To make outlook issue RE: instead of yer localized version of RE:, use Menu Extras\Options Click on E-Mail Format Click on International Options Click on something that can be rougly translated as "Headers & Replys in English" . (There are two checkboxes at the top, click both). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:09:26 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: Re: [Some Listmeta plus the worlds smallest Quine ???] A contest + On Sat, 9 Jun 2001, Gerson Kurz wrote: > In python, a 0 byte large program can be executed without warning. That is, > you create a file null.py that is 0 bytes large. You execute that. The file Was it Chris or David Madore who said on his site: "If a program is a series of instructions, then a null program is a series of zero instructions. The null program has many interesting properties, such as being a quine in many languages." First time I saw the null quine, it was proposed as a quine in C, with a warning that it's not ANSI C. Many interpreted languages do have the null quine. > longer). The worlds smallest quine ? I think so. The next thing is to try to produce a 0-length quine with 0-length metadata. (No lame .exe / .py endings to tell you what the thingy is!) This way, you would really be unable to tell the language the quine's written in. > > Okay, so the problem is reply-to headers that get through, and Outlook > > that does not give you the possibility to reply to any other address? > > Come to think of it, it does. Its the "reply to all" button (Ctrl+Shift+R) > but I'm kinda used to "Reply" and I am too old to learn new things. I kinda recall proposing the "reply all" solution to somebody, but that must have slipped your eye. May I presume that the kill threat is off? > How so? Here is the old catseye lists' mail header: > > Reply-To: list@catseye.mb.ca > > See the reply-to field. It's the cascading of lists. I remember somebody saying that rewriting reply-to is evil altogether, but I don't have so strong principles. The problem is, because messages come to the misc list directly _and_ via other lists, I would have to have some checking in the list manager program for whether a reply-to is personal (strippable) or list-inserted (and should be left as is). Another solution would be to make still one more list, chat@esoteric.sange.fi, so that misc would become a read-only list showing all the postings to the other lists. > RE: is short for "reply", AW: is short for "Antwort", which is the german I know. And Finnish Outlook clients put "Vs: " (short for "vastaus") in the subject. I just wish they didn't. For example, the list manager can strip multiple [list] tags and multiple Re: tags, but I have to strip AW: by hand. > word for "reply". Outlook German seems unable to change that. But I agree, a > consistent naming would be preferable. Don't I love Outlook! Some early versions of outlook put a _localised_ time in the sent: field, all with regional month names and such. Easy to guess that this fucked up the sorting of almost every mail client... grr. Panu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:01:52 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Re: the extent of formal logic I know, I'm not subscribed to sci yet but I just wanted to say this... Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > I know inductive reasoning (but what all does inductive > reasoning include?) Given A, B, C, and the homomorphism "A is to B as C is to D", find D. A homomorphism is a relationship between relationships, aka an analogy. Ben Olmstead wrote: > Logic, alone, can't do anything. > Logic is a tool--a model--and nothing more. And this is a problem because...? I mean, if you've found something better I'm sure we'd all *love* to hear about it ;) > 1. If this person is Ben Olmstead, he has a key to my house. > 2. This person has a key to my house. > 3. This person is Ben Olmstead. If this person is Ben Olmstead, he has a key to my house. Invert. If this person has a key to my house, he either is or is not Ben Olmstead. This person has a key to my house therefore this person may or may not be Ben Olmstead. I know you don't really learn anything that way but my point is that the logic holds equally well regardless. > The whole point is that science uses inductive reasoning, which is > potentially--even probably, in most science--wrong, but usually good > enough to use. To be more specific, scientists come up with hypotheses inductively and then test them deductively with experiments. Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:33:21 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: Re: the extent of formal logic On Sun, 10 Jun 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > I know, I'm not subscribed to sci yet but I just wanted to say this... > > Panu A Kalliokoski wrote: > > I know inductive reasoning (but what all does inductive > > reasoning include?) > > Given A, B, C, and the homomorphism "A is to B as C is to D", find D. > > A homomorphism is a relationship between relationships, aka an analogy. > > Ben Olmstead wrote: > > Logic, alone, can't do anything. > > Logic is a tool--a model--and nothing more. > > And this is a problem because...? > > I mean, if you've found something better I'm sure we'd all *love* to > hear about it ;) Unlogic obviously :-) > > > 1. If this person is Ben Olmstead, he has a key to my house. > > 2. This person has a key to my house. > > 3. This person is Ben Olmstead. > > If this person is Ben Olmstead, he has a key to my house. Invert. If > this person has a key to my house, he either is or is not Ben Olmstead. > This person has a key to my house therefore this person may or may not > be Ben Olmstead. I talked to a psychologist I know recently about logic. There's always two things that make sense and two that don't or are wrong (I forgot the terms). Nobody so far managed to figure out which two are the correct ones and which aren't (even humans mess up a lot of the times). The classical example is the following: We have 4 cards. If the front side of the card is a vowel then the back side MUST be an even number. The four visible sides of the cards are: a, b, 1, 2. Which cards does it make sense to swap in order to prove that the above rule doesn't hold. Swapping b or 1 won't help us proving anything, as we don't have any rules for those sides. We could however swap a to see if the back side is an even number or 2 to see if the back side is a vowel. > > I know you don't really learn anything that way but my point is that the > logic holds equally well regardless. > > > The whole point is that science uses inductive reasoning, which is > > potentially--even probably, in most science--wrong, but usually good > > enough to use. > > To be more specific, scientists come up with hypotheses inductively and > then test them deductively with experiments. > > Chris > > -- > cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ > "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. > "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. "Foo," said Bar. "Foofoo," said Quux. Markus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:30:46 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [Sleep Sort] in Erlang Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > Hmm, that gave me the idea of a "sleep sort": > unsigned x[]; > int count; > while (count-- && fork()); > if (count >= 0) { > sleep(x[count]); > printf("%d\n", x[count]); > } That's beautiful. sleep_sort(L) -> lists:foreach(fun(X) -> spawn(?MODULE, sleep_thread, [X]) end, L). sleep_thread(X) -> timer:sleep(X * 1000), io:fwrite("~w~n", [X]). Chris -- cpressey@catseye.mb.ca http://www.catseye.mb.ca/ "Moo," said the cow. "Mu-mu," said the Hawaiian P.I. "Two," said the mathematician. "Tutu", said the ballet dancer. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 01:54:25 +0200 From: Bertram Felgenhauer Subject: Re: the extent of formal logic (and a Brainf*** bonus) markus.kliegl wrote: > We have 4 cards. > If the front side of the card is a vowel then the back side MUST be an > even number. > The four visible sides of the cards are: a, b, 1, 2. > Which cards does it make sense to swap in order to prove that the above > rule doesn't hold. > > Swapping b or 1 won't help us proving anything, as we don't have any rules > for those sides. We could however swap a to see if the back side is an > even number or 2 to see if the back side is a vowel. And ... wrong. It makes sense to turn around the card with 'a', hoping _not_ to find an even number on the other side, but something different. It also makes sense to turn around the card with 'b', hoping to find a vowel on the other side. (well, of course if we knew that the cards have letters on one side and numbers on the other side, that wouldn't make sense either). Finally it makes sense to turn around the card with '1', again hoping to find a vowel on the other side. It does not make sense, however, to turn around the card with '2', because whatever we'll find on the other side, be it a vowel or not, the conclusion of the rule will be true and thus the implication. Bertram P.S. Here is my so far shortest nontrivial Brainf*** quine (all should go on a single line with no newline at the end): >---->-->+>++++>++>+>+>+>+>-->->->>>>->-->-->-->-->->>+>-->->>>>>>+>-- ->++>>>>>>++>->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>>>>++>->>>>+>--->++>--->--->--->++>+>+> -->->->->++++>+>>+>+>>++>->->-->->>>>>+>>++>>>>>>-->-->+>+>>->->>++>-> >>+>++>->>++++>>>+>+>-->->->>>>>>>>>>>+>+>--->++>>>>>>>->->-->+>++>+>+ >-->->-->->++>--->+>+>>++>>++>--->->->>>>>->-->>>>>+>-->+>+>+>>->->->> ++>++>>>>++++[[+>>>+<<<]<++++]>++++>>-[+[+<<-[>]>]<<[<]>>++++++[-<<+++ +++++++>>]<<++.+>[<++>[+>>+<<]]+++++[+<++++>]>>[+<<+<.>>>]<<[---[-<+++ >[+++<++++++++++++++>[+++++[-<+++++>]<+>]]]]>+++>>]<<<<[.<]0 Note: this will only work with Brainf*** interpreters having a finite datatype for the tape entries. In particular, this will not run on ENSI compliant Brainf*** interpreters (On which -[-] would be an infinite loop). -- `.oo' ,. (`-' '^\`-' ) Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes c-L'- an annual free trip around the Sun. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:04:34 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: Re: the extent of formal logic (and a Brainf*** bonus) On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Bertram Felgenhauer wrote: > markus.kliegl wrote: > > We have 4 cards. > > If the front side of the card is a vowel then the back side MUST be an > > even number. > > The four visible sides of the cards are: a, b, 1, 2. > > Which cards does it make sense to swap in order to prove that the above > > rule doesn't hold. > > > > Swapping b or 1 won't help us proving anything, as we don't have any rules > > for those sides. We could however swap a to see if the back side is an > > even number or 2 to see if the back side is a vowel. > > And ... wrong. It makes sense to turn around the card with 'a', hoping > _not_ to find an even number on the other side, but something different. > It also makes sense to turn around the card with 'b', hoping > to find a vowel on the other side. (well, of course if we knew > that the cards have letters on one side and numbers on the other > side, that wouldn't make sense either). > Finally it makes sense to turn around the card with '1', again > hoping to find a vowel on the other side. > > It does not make sense, however, to turn around the card with '2', > because whatever we'll find on the other side, be it a vowel or not, > the conclusion of the rule will be true and thus the implication. Aargh, see... I messed up myself :-) And yes: one side is always a letter and the other always a number. The idea is that this applies to most (all?) of these things, e.g. let's take the Portland - Maine thing again. Premise 1: If Portland is the capital of Maine, then it is in Maine. Premise 2: Portland is in Maine. The positive(?) correct thing we can get out of this is: If Portland is the capital of Maine, then it is in Maine. The negative correct thing we can get is: If Portland isn't in Maine, then it isn't the capital of Maine either. The positive wrong thing: If Portland is in Maine, then it is the capital of Maine. The negative wrong thing: If Portland isn't the capital of Maine, then it isn't in Maine. I tend to not make sense so I hope I got it right this time :-) > > Bertram > > -- > `.oo' > ,. (`-' > '^\`-' ) Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes > c-L'- an annual free trip around the Sun. > > Markus ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Obfuscated SQL] How to create an is-numeric function in PL/SQL Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:30:51 +0100 What would the world be without EX-COBOL programmers? ---- FULLQUOTE BEGIN ---- Oracle Corporation Oracle Producer : Oracle Corporation / Internet : http://www.oracle.com Article C2P8A1972 / Language ENG Working with a lot of EX-COBOL programmers learning SQL, one complaint I kept hearing is that there isn't a test for "Is Numeric" like in COBOL. The need for "Is Numeric" functionality arose from programmers trying to sum a column that's defined as a VARCHAR2, as in Oracle's Payroll Application table "apps.pay_run_result_values" where the result_value column is not always a numeric value. Creating a PL/SQL function, or PL/SQL function in a package, that would test for such an event and return the correct value would probably be the best course of action. However, I also wanted to help advance the education of these SQL "newbie's." Therefore, I arrived at an all SQL solution as illustrated below. While looking like an obfuscated SQL statement contest winner, this six layer deep, characteristic point function translates the given string changing all numeric and associated numeric characters (i.e. '.' and '-') to spaces, and then trims all spaces from the result. By trimming all the spaces from the result, the decode can determine if the value is truly numeric, except for nulls of course. The nulls are addressed by the NVL() function. The end result is that if the string is numeric, a numeric value is returned, anything else is returned as a zero value. So far the only complaint I've heard is that the function has too many parentheses to match up. SELECT -- EXAMPLES... NVL(TO_NUMBER(DECODE(LTRIM(RTRIM(TRANSLATE (NULL ,'0123456789.-',''))), NULL,NULL ,'0')),0) NULL_NOT_NUMERIC, NVL(TO_NUMBER(DECODE(LTRIM(RTRIM(TRANSLATE ('' ,'0123456789.-',''))), NULL,'' ,'0')),0) EMPTY_NOT_NUMERIC, NVL(TO_NUMBER(DECODE(LTRIM(RTRIM(TRANSLATE ('123X' ,'0123456789.-',''))), NULL,'123X' ,'0')),0) NOT_NUMERIC, NVL(TO_NUMBER(DECODE(LTRIM(RTRIM(TRANSLATE ('BLAH' ,'0123456789.-',''))), NULL,'BLAH' ,'0')),0) NOT_NUMERIC2, NVL(TO_NUMBER(DECODE(LTRIM(RTRIM(TRANSLATE ('123.5' ,'0123456789.-',''))), NULL,'123.5' ,'0')),0) IS_NUMERIC, NVL(TO_NUMBER(DECODE(LTRIM(RTRIM(TRANSLATE ('123' ,'0123456789.-',''))), NULL,'123' ,'0')),0) IS_NUMERIC2, NVL(TO_NUMBER(DECODE(LTRIM(RTRIM(TRANSLATE ('-123.45' ,'0123456789.-',''))), NULL,'-123.45','0')),0) IS_NUMERIC2ALSO -- REPLACE ALIAS.COLUMNNAME WITH THE NAME OF THE COLUMN YOU WANT TO TEST... --NVL(TO_NUMBER(DECODE(LTRIM(RTRIM(TRANSLATE (ALIAS.COLUMNNAME,'0123456789.-',' '))), -- NULL,ALIAS.COLUMNNAME,'0')),0) FROM DUAL --FROM OWNER.TABLE_NAME ------------------------------------------ -- SAMPLE USAGE ------------------------------------------ -- SELECT -- ALIAS.COLUMNNAME1, -- SUM(NVL(TO_NUMBER(DECODE(LTRIM(RTRIM(TRANSLATE (ALIAS.COLUMNNAME2,'0123456789.-',' '))), NULL, -- ALIAS.COLUMNNAME2,'0')),0) SUMMED_COLUMN -- FROM OWNER.TABLE_NAME ALIAS -- GROUPED BY ALIAS.COLUMNNAME1 ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ End of this article… ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [Reason Truth & History][Modell Theory] New Language Idea Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:42:43 +0100 I've been re-reading the (genius) philosopher Hilary Putnam lately. Now, in "Reason Truth & History" there is a (in philosophy famous) note on that, in modell theory, one can reinterpret the complete semantic of a world to mean something completely different. In the main text he brings the simple example of reinterpreting "the cat is on the mat" by "the cherry is on the tree", without changing *the truth-value* of any existing sentence about cats or mats or cherry os trees; there is also a mathematical proof of the possibility at the appendix of the book. [He was "Walter Beverly Pearson Professor of Modern Mathematics and Mathematical Logic" @ Harvard]. Now, should that not be possible of a computer language? What I mean is take a syntactically correct program in a language A, and reinterpret that in language B? No, I don't mean polyglots: most of them cheat by using comments & stuff like that. What I mean is a coherent reinterpretation of all syntactical elements in a language. (Of course one could always create a ad-hoc language that has as syntactical elements all those used in a particular program); I mean the more general case where you could say: take *any* C program - it could be either C or that other yet-to-be-named-language. (Not necessary a usefull program - just a syntactically correct program). Here is a first shot, but I'm really just thinking about this as of yet. The following is my meta-description of a C-Program: INCLUDEFILES DATA1 DATA2 DATA3 ... FUNCTION1 FUNCTION2 FUNCTION3 ... A first step would be to swap the semantics of DATA and FUNCTION, so that int a=1; actually encodes a -albeit simple- function definition that returns 1 always; and int main(){} declares an integer "main" having the value 2. I am currently wondering - can that be done for a complete syntax, or maybe is it possible only for selected bits of the syntax (i.e. "all else is left in the same interpretation") - which language to choose best as a host for that new language. for example, there is a trivial reinterpretation of brainfuck*, where + and - change semantics => all bf programs are bf* programs, maybe not *working* or *usefull* programs, but syntactically correct nevertheless. BTW: if P. is correct, or more likely: if my understanding of P. is correct, a reinterpration should be possible where all BF programs are *working* BF* programs. But then again, his argument is that the truth-value of all sentences is left intact by a reinterpretation - and I don't know if and how one would call statements in BF "true" or "false". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:30:28 -0700 From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] [Brainf***] (was Re: the extent of formal logic (and a Brainf** >P.S. >Here is my so far shortest nontrivial Brainf*** quine (all should go on >a single line with no newline at the end): > > >---->-->+>++++>++>+>+>+>+>-->->->>>>->-->-->-->-->->>+>-->->>>>>>+>-- >->++>>>>>>++>->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>>>>++>->>>>+>--->++>--->--->--->++>+>+> >-->->->->++++>+>>+>+>>++>->->-->->>>>>+>>++>>>>>>-->-->+>+>>->->>++>-> >>>+>++>->>++++>>>+>+>-->->->>>>>>>>>>>+>+>--->++>>>>>>>->->-->+>++>+>+ >>-->->-->->++>--->+>+>>++>>++>--->->->>>>>->-->>>>>+>-->+>+>+>>->->->> >++>++>>>>++++[[+>>>+<<<]<++++]>++++>>-[+[+<<-[>]>]<<[<]>>++++++[-<<+++ >+++++++>>]<<++.+>[<++>[+>>+<<]]+++++[+<++++>]>>[+<<+<.>>>]<<[---[-<+++ > >[+++<++++++++++++++>[+++++[-<+++++>]<+>]]]]>+++>>]<<<<[.<]0 Congratulations. This is the shortest of the six or seven I've seen. I'll puzzle out the workings when I have time. (According to my informal survey of available brainfuck programs, the quine is the most frequently implemented, surpassing e.g. Hello World. I wonder, what other languages is this true of?) (Incidentally, the tests of my compiler for Sun machines vs. Panu's fed to gcc -O3 were somewhat inconclusive and I never got around to tidying them up and posting them. Most programs ran in times brief enough, i.e. close enough to the limits of accuracy of the time command, that very little could be concluded--a vague tendency to favor my compiler, but nothing substantive. Of the substantive ones, prime.b ran substantially faster on my compiler, but both implementations of rot13 I tested ran significantly faster on Panu's. (Much of the excess time in mine was spent during system calls, because I used unbuffered output.) I uncovered two bugs in my compiler during the tests, i.e. that I had not properly implemented the EOF-to-0 conversion that Panu very sensibly favors, and that I had not aligned the array on page boundaries as I should have, in order to detect (and crash on) out-of-bounds accesses immediately. I will correct both these, and some others, when I get around to it. Incidentally, Panu's implementation suffers from the second even worse than mine does. This is a straightforward consequence of using C as an intermediary and thus not having low-level control over the exact layout of the process in memory. There may or may not be a fix for this; if there is it will probably require making the code somewhat less portable. Incidentally, crashing instantly on any out-of-bounds array access is probably not a feature of very general utility--it just comes in handy when you want to stop at a precisely chosen point without having to put counters in the brainfuck code explicitly.) -Daniel. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:26:08 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: ... [nt] ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: ---[os2] was ( ... [nt]) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:38:44 +0100 ------------------------------ From: "Cal Henderson" Subject: ~~~[RISC OS] (was ---[os2]) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:42:33 +0100 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:38:38 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke Subject: ???[W2K] was ---[os2] was ( ... [nt]) Gerson Kurz wrote: [nothing much !] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:41:13 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke Subject: I mean it... ???W2K (~~~[RISC OS] (was ---[os2])) Cal Henderson wrote: [nothing more] ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: Eric Raymond: Kernel configuration. It's not just a job, it's an adven Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:57:16 +0100 OK, heavy slashdot/linuxtoday users will already know this one, but for all the others, here is something from the man that maintains the INTERCAL tarpit: Subject: Kernel configuration. It's not just a job, it's an adventure! From: Eric S. Raymond Date: Sat Jun 16 2001 - 21:27:09 EST Various people on the Linux kernel mailing list and elsewhere have been heard to opine that CML2's user interface is too oriented towards nontechnical users. In response to these complaints, I have implemented a fourth CML2 front end with an interface style expressly designed for the serious, hard-core hacker. A transcript of an example session follows: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to CML2 Adventure, version 1.6.1. You are in a maze of twisty little Linux kernel options menus, all different. The main room. A sign reads `Linux Kernel Configuration System'. Passages lead off in all directions. > n The arch room. A sign reads `Processor type'. A passage leads upwards. Choose your processor architecture. A brass lantern is here. There is a row of buttons on the wall of this room. They read: X86, ALPHA, SPARC32, SPARC64, MIPS32, MIPS64, PPC, M68K, ARM, SUPERH, IA64, PARISC, S390, S390X, CRIS The button marked X86 is pressed. > take lantern Lantern: taken. > look X86 Value of X86 is y. This is Linux's home port. Linux was originally native to the Intel 386, and runs on all the later x86 processors including the Intel 486, 586, Pentiums, and various instruction-set-compatible chips by AMD, Cyrix, and others. > up In main room. > nearby The arch room. A sign reads `Processor type'. The archihacks room. A sign reads `Architecture-specific hardware hacks'. The buses room. A sign reads `System buses and controller types'. The pm room. A sign reads `Power management'. The mtd room. A sign reads `Memory Technology Device (MTD) support'. The x86 room. A sign reads `Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options'. The policy room. A sign reads `Configuration policy options'. The generic room. A sign reads `Architecture-independent feature selections'. The block_devices room. A sign reads `Block devices'. > go generic The generic room. A sign reads `Architecture-independent feature selections'. A passage leads upwards. There is an option named MODULES here. There is an option named NET here. There is an option named SYSVIPC here. There is an option named BSD_PROCESS_ACCT here. There is an option named SYSCTL here. There is an option named BINFMT_AOUT here. There is an option named BINFMT_MISC here. There is an option named SMP here. > take NET NET: taken. > take MODULES Tristate symbols won't default to M. MODULES: taken. > up In main room. > nearby The arch room. A sign reads `Processor type'. The archihacks room. A sign reads `Architecture-specific hardware hacks'. The buses room. A sign reads `System buses and controller types'. The pm room. A sign reads `Power management'. The mtd room. A sign reads `Memory Technology Device (MTD) support'. The x86 room. A sign reads `Intel and compatible 80x86 processor options'. The policy room. A sign reads `Configuration policy options'. The generic room. A sign reads `Architecture-independent feature selections'. The block_devices room. A sign reads `Block devices'. > go buses The buses room. A sign reads `System buses and controller types'. A passage leads upwards. Specify the buses, disk controllers, and internal interconnection standards that you want your kernel to support. It is very dark. If you continue, you are likely to be eaten by a grue. There is an option named EISA here. There is an option named PCI here. There is an option named PNP here. There is an option named PARPORT here. There is an option named HOTPLUG here. There is an option named IDE here. There is an option named SCSI here. There is an option named USB here. There is an option named I2O here. There is an option named MTD here. There is an option named WATCHDOG here. > light lantern The lantern radiates a mellow golden light. > take PCI PCI: taken. > help Welcome to the adventure configurator. For a command summary, type `commands'. In general, a three-letter abbreviation of any command word is sufficient to identify it to the parser. This interface emulates the style of classic text adventure games such as Colossal Cave Adventure and Zork. Configuration menus are rooms, and configuration options are objects that can be taken and dropped (except for choice/radiobutton symbols, which become buttons on various room walls). Objects and rooms may silently appear and disappear as visibilities change. Have fun, and beware of the grues! In main room. > commands look [target] -- look here or at target (direction or option). nearby -- list nearby rooms (useful with go) go -- go to a named menu (follow with the label). inventory -- show which options you have picked up. drop -- unset option. take [module] -- set option, follow with option name. press -- press a button (follow with the button name). set -- set numeric or string; follow with symbol and value. load -- read in a configuration (follow with the filename). save -- save the configuration (follow with a filename). xyzzy -- toggle suppression flag. quit -- quit, discarding changes. exit -- exit, saving the configuration. You can move in compass directions n,e,w,s,ne,nw,se,sw or dn for down. > quit ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:23:44 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: @@@ [FreeBSD] ------------------------------ From: "Cal Henderson" Subject: !!! [PalmOS] Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:10:37 +0100 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 01:12:51 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: Re: I mean it... ???W2K (~~~[RISC OS] (was ---[os2])) I've been in denial.. but I think it's finally time to admit that my mind has been twisted beyond belief by these insane programming languages. Not sure if *you* have been possessed? Top ten clues that your mind has been hopelessly lost to the esoteric power: 10) You wake up in the middle of the night with sudden inspiration for a new BF method. 9) When you tell your programming buddies what you have been working on, they say things like: "just looking at it I'd say that I'd rather be programming in assembly anyday" 8) You have trouble coding in a conventional language because you keep thinking, That can't be right, that was too easy! 7) Two screen dimensions just aren't enough. 6) Suddenly a new idea for a programming language comes into mind, only to be forgotten when you realize the light is green and a car is honking at you to go. 5) You can't boot the computer anymore; You haven't finished the OS. 4) You debate endlessly whether it will be an interpreter or a compiler. 3) There are only 2 devices that matter: Standard Input, Standard output. 2) You wanted to tell someone off, but you hadn't been polite enough lately so it comes out PLEASE GIVE UP. 1) Your ultimate goal in life is to write a working Malbolge program from scratch. Jeff ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [pessimizing compiler] usefull goals in life Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:39:05 +0100 from the Jargon file: http://www.tuxedo.org/jargon/html/The-Jargon-Lexicon-framed.html pessimizing compiler /pes'*-mi:z`ing k*m-pi:l'r/ n. [antonym of techspeak `optimizing compiler'] A compiler that produces object code that is worse than the straightforward or obvious hand translation. The implication is that the compiler is actually trying to optimize the program, but through excessive cleverness is doing the opposite. A few pessimizing compilers have been written on purpose, however, as pranks or burlesques. Now, why the hack haven't I yet written one of those ? And, do you know of actual real-life examples of the mentioned pranks & burlesques ? ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5Buglify=B2=5D_C/C++_code_parser_in_Python=2C_anyone_= Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:36:21 +0100 Has anybody already written a good (=fast) c/c++ code parser in python? I'm brewing up ideas for uglify**2, and I find a simple straight-forward parsing in the best programming language in the world is too slow. ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: >>> SCA Kickstart 1.3 (was: !!! [PalmOS]) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:54:27 +0100 > -----Original Message----- > From: misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi > [mailto:misc-bounce@esoteric.sange.fi]On Behalf Of Cal Henderson > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 10:11 AM > To: misc@esoteric.sange.fi > Subject: !!! [PalmOS] > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:55:35 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fr=E9d=E9ric?= van der Plancke Subject: ^^^ [QDOS/SMSQ] (was: >>> SCA Kickstart 1.3 (was: !!! [PalmOS])) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:48:17 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: +++ [NO CARRIER] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:54:09 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: ___ [FreeBSD] I think I just found Russell's sunwheels... ...hiding in the Mandelbrot set. ------------------------------ From: "Cal Henderson" Subject: }}} [epoch] Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:16:07 +0100 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:29:05 +0100 From: Keith Gaughan Subject: [Mandrake Linux] ^ [RISC OS] / [Win] Was: +++ [NO CARRIER] At 03:55 pm 21/6/2001 +0200, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote: > I'm quite puzzled... K. --=20 Keith Gaughan Software Developer, Digital Crew Ltd. All your .sig are belong to us! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:33:02 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: [Mandrake Linux] ^ [RISC OS] / [Win] Was: +++ [NO CARRIER] Keith Gaughan wrote: >=20 > At 03:55 pm 21/6/2001 +0200, Fr=E9d=E9ric van der Plancke wrote: > > > I'm quite puzzled... Awww, Keith blinked.=20 How is everyone these days? It's been quiet. I know I owe y'all=20 another installment of SETI Puzzle, but I'm both settling into=20 new job and dealing with wedding plans. -RB ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: @@@ [Plan 9] (was: ^^^ [QDOS/SMSQ] (was: >>> SCA Kickstart 1.3 (was: ! Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:41:45 +0100 ------------------------------ From: Steve Mosher Subject: NEW NEW NEW Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:54:28 -0300 On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Russell Bornschlegel pressed some keys and this came out: > How is everyone these days? It's been quiet. I know I owe y'all > another installment of SETI Puzzle, but I'm both settling into > new job and dealing with wedding plans. > > -RB Making silly Dada web toys (there's even one in my .sig): http://198.167.161.224/toys/ -- Steve Mosher, Mad Scientist Be brave, all must face their strength; the stone hides an anxiety. Your clarity is spoiled - this is the way that insane things are. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:22:25 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Re: +++ [NO CARRIER] Was: [Mandrake Linux] ^ [RISC OS] / [Win] Was: ++ Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > How is everyone these days? It's been quiet. I know I owe y'all > another installment of SETI Puzzle, but I'm both settling into > new job and dealing with wedding plans. I'm currently in the process of switching to a different ISP, different connection hardware, and a different operating system. Whee! -Chris -- This sentence will be false in 20 seconds starting..... NOW! -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- File: tg #!/usr/local/bin/perl # tg[.pl] v2001.06.19 # Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without # modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions # are met: # # Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright # notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. # # Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright # notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in # the documentation and/or other materials provided with the # distribution. # # Neither the name of Cat's Eye Technologies nor the names of its # contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived # from this software without specific prior written permission. # # THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND # CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, # INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF # MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE # DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE # LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, # OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, # PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, # OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON # ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, # OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY # OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE # POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. ### BEGIN tg[,pl] ### # Cat's Eye Technologies' Perl5 Telegram Generator. # usage: tg[.pl] < incoming_text > outgoing_telegram ### SUBS ### sub single_space { my $s = shift; # return $s; return join(' ', split(/\s+/, $s)); } sub generate { my $i = shift; my $o = ''; while ($i ne '') { if ($i =~ /^\.\.\./) { $i = $'; $o .= " ELLIPSIS "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\./) { $i = $'; $o .= " STOP "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\,/) { $i = $'; $o .= " COMMA "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\;/) { $i = $'; $o .= " SEMICOLON "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\:/) { $i = $'; $o .= " COLON "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\@/) { $i = $'; $o .= " AT "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\#/) { $i = $'; $o .= " OCTALTHORPE "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\%/) { $i = $'; $o .= " PERCENT "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\^/) { $i = $'; $o .= " CARET "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\$/) { $i = $'; $o .= " DOLLARS "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\&/) { $i = $'; $o .= " AMPERSAND "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\*/) { $i = $'; $o .= " ASTERISK "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\~/) { $i = $'; $o .= " TILDE "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\-/) { $i = $'; $o .= " HYPHEN "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\(/) { $i = $'; $o .= " OPEN PARENTHESIS "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\)/) { $i = $'; $o .= " CLOSE PARENTHESIS "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\[/) { $i = $'; $o .= " OPEN BRACKET "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\]/) { $i = $'; $o .= " CLOSE BRACKET "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\{/) { $i = $'; $o .= " OPEN BRACE "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\}/) { $i = $'; $o .= " CLOSE BRACE "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\|/) { $i = $'; $o .= " VERTICAL BAR "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\//) { $i = $'; $o .= " SLASH "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\\/) { $i = $'; $o .= " BACKSLASH "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\!/) { $i = $'; $o .= " EXCLAMATION POINT "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\?/) { $i = $'; $o .= " QUESTION MARK "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\_/) { $i = $'; $o .= " UNDERSCORE "; } elsif ($i =~ /^\"/) { $i = $'; if ($q) { $q = 0; $o .= " CLOSE "; } else { $q = 1; $o .= " OPEN "; } $o .= " QUOTE "; } elsif ($i =~ /^0/) { $i = $'; $o .= " NAUGHT "; } elsif ($i =~ /^1/) { $i = $'; $o .= " ONE "; } elsif ($i =~ /^2/) { $i = $'; $o .= " TWO "; } elsif ($i =~ /^3/) { $i = $'; $o .= " THREE "; } elsif ($i =~ /^4/) { $i = $'; $o .= " FOUR "; } elsif ($i =~ /^5/) { $i = $'; $o .= " FIVE "; } elsif ($i =~ /^6/) { $i = $'; $o .= " SIX "; } elsif ($i =~ /^7/) { $i = $'; $o .= " SEVEN "; } elsif ($i =~ /^8/) { $i = $'; $o .= " EIGHT "; } elsif ($i =~ /^9/) { $i = $'; $o .= " NINER "; } elsif ($i =~ /^`/) { $i = $'; } elsif ($i =~ /^'/) { $i = $'; } elsif ($i =~ /^(.)/) { $i = $'; $o .= uc($1) if ord($1) >= 32; } } return $o; } ### MAIN ### $|=1; while(defined($line = )) { chomp $line; $line = single_space(generate($line)); $line =~ s/^\s*(.*?)$/$1/; $line =~ s/^(.*?)\s*$/$1/; print "$line "; } ### END of tg[.pl] ### -- Attached file included as plaintext by Listar -- -- File: noyz #!/usr/local/bin/perl # noyz[.pl] v2001.06.22 Chris Pressey # Fairly realistic line noise simulator. # Usage: [perl] noyz[.pl] [average-long-delay-in-seconds] & # Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without # modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions # are met: # # Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright # notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. # # Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright # notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in # the documentation and/or other materials provided with the # distribution. # # Neither the name of Cat's Eye Technologies nor the names of its # contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived # from this software without specific prior written permission. # # THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND # CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, # INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF # MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE # DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE # LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, # OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, # PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, # OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON # ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, # OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY # OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE # POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. ### BEGIN noyz[.pl] ### $bk = 30; if(defined($arg = shift @ARGV)) { $bk = 0+$arg; } ### MAIN ### $| = 1; while(1) { $rv = int(rand(1) * ($bk/3) - $bk/3); sleep $bk + $rv; $cy = int(rand(1) * 8) + 1; for($i=1;$i <= $cy; $i++) { $cc = int(rand(1) * 12) + 1; for($j=1; $j <= $cc; $j++) { print chr(int(rand(1) * 256)); } $sp = int(rand(1) * 3) + 1; sleep $sp; } } ### END of noyz[.pl] ### -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar -- -- Type: application/x-gzip -- File: tg.6.gz -- Binary/unsupported file stripped by Listar -- -- Type: application/x-gzip -- File: noyz.6.gz ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: Music in the numbers Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:40:14 +0100 At http://bfws7e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~kinderma/, you can find a program that composes music from IP addresses. There is a somewhat mathematical background to this. Its a framed site, so you'll have to manually go to the "Music in the numbers" page (in the "Activities" section). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:08:14 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: number-o-mania: the massive base-10 conspiracy strikes again 111,111,111 * 111,111,111 = 12,345,678,987,654,321 Weeks ago I took Hofstader's "Escher, Godel, Bach" out of the library... it's due back today, so I guess I had better give my book report on it now. I didn't really like it enough to read the whole thing... kind of geeky for my taste. It confirmed what I didn't really like about his style. Too much awe, not enough whimsey. Isn't it enough for Bach's music to just be pretty? I mean, by DH's definition, *any* loop is a "strange loop". 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 would be a "strange loop" - look at how the rightmost digit mysteriously comes full circle and uncannily becomes zero once again. Ooh! Spooky! Tell me more. That's just my opinion, though. Chris -- Every number system is base-10 in some sense, base-8 in some sense, base-10 and base-8 in some sense, base-3 in some sense, base-8 and base-3 in some sense, base-10 and base-3 in some sense, base-8 and base-10 and base-3 in some sense... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 15:34:40 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: Re: GEB (was Re: number-o-mania...) Chris Pressey wrote: > I didn't really like it enough to read the whole thing... kind of geeky > for my taste. It confirmed what I didn't really like about his style. > Too much awe, not enough whimsey. I don't believe I've actually read the whole book, but I have read bits and pieces of it over and over and over. Certainly it's not flawless, but it did introduce me to a lot of then-new-to-me ideas when I started trying to read it years-n-years ago. Chris, stay away from Clifford Pickover's books, if you thought Hofstadter too easily awed and/or too full of himself. > Isn't it enough for Bach's music to just be pretty? Sure it is -- and thorough treatments of that theme are available at your local record store or symphony hall. :) But it's significant, to me, as a non-music reader, to know that it's pretty on multiple levels - to the ear when played, to the eye when scored, to the um intellectual center when analyzed mathematically; this, combined with the explosion of popular information on fractals in the 1980s, pretty much set the direction for most of my creative life. (And until I wrote this paragraph, I had thought the musical parts of GEB were mostly lost on me!) Anyway, I don't want to start a "GEB rules/GEB sucks" war; instead, I'll try and start a language flamewar. At my new job, we're using C++, and the style guidelines are about one notch up in terms of good OO engineering practices from where I was previously. I'm trying to meet that challenge, and among other things, I've bitten the bullet and eliminated C-style casts from my code, using the ugly C++ casts. Now, I consider myself a moderately strong C++ programmer; I know there are aspects of the language that I'm weak in (exception handling, to pick one), but felt like I had a solid grasp of the basics. That is, until I picked up Herb Sutter's "Exceptional C++"[1]. After reading this book, I feel like working in C++, and by extension, working on my current project, or at my current place of employment, or in the game industry, or in the computer industry, is begging to fail. (Again.[2]) The book is a collection of programming puzzles of the "what does this do? is this the best way to do this? what are the pros and cons of this versus that?" variety, around advanced C++ topics. I haven't even been able to face half of the articles in it, but even so, I've learned a lot of scary things about C++ (e.g. Koenig lookup, which as far as I can tell is the introduction of a completely non-intuitive rule introduced so that you can get away with forgetting to type "using namespace std;"). I'm too depressed to go on writing this -- not because I've learned the extent of my own ignorance, but because the "average C++ programmer" knows even less. We've been interviewing programmers at work lately, and we had a guy in last week who had a 4-year degree with a 3.5 GPA and 4 years industry experience who couldn't write the standard C library routine "strcpy()". Yes, it's rattling to have to do that at a whitboard, with an audience who holds your employment prospects in their hands, but still. Bleah. -RB [1] Don't buy the book; instead, look up the Guru of the Week articles at: http://www.PeerDirect.com/resources The book is a reworking of these articles with some additional materia; but I felt that at US$34 I should have gotten a lot more than 200 pages; the puzzle-solution format should have been supplemented with a lot more background on the language rules which inform the puzzles. [2] With a release candidate in hand, Sierra chose to cancel production of Half-Life for Dreamcast. This after two of the development houses involved offered to give up their share of the royalties if it would make the publishing work out. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:26:05 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: Re: GEB (was Re: number-o-mania...) I definitely wouldn't be hired :) 1) What are you talking about with strcpy()? Are C++ programmers supposed to memorize whatever source code routines that make up C++ (I haven't been to school for C, maybe its in that memorize the compiler 101 course)? Or am I missing the point? Maybe you mean the syntax of how to use strcpy()? I could understand you wanting that. 2) I have no idea how to do Object Oriented programming.. of course maybe thats why I don't have a programming job and you do. All that class, object, method, inheritance garbage confuses me to death. And, it sounds suspiciously like it was made up by someone that considered Goto as harmful. ;) Jeff On Sat, 23 Jun 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > I'm too depressed to go on writing this -- not because I've learned > the extent of my own ignorance, but because the "average C++ > programmer" knows even less. We've been interviewing programmers > at work lately, and we had a guy in last week who had a 4-year > degree with a 3.5 GPA and 4 years industry experience who > couldn't write the standard C library routine "strcpy()". Yes, > it's rattling to have to do that at a whitboard, with an audience > who holds your employment prospects in their hands, but still. > > Bleah. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 04:10:21 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: Re: GEB (was Re: number-o-mania...) (I didn't get Russel's message for some reason) On Sat, 23 Jun 2001, Jeff Johnston wrote: > > > I definitely wouldn't be hired :) > > 1) What are you talking about with strcpy()? Are C++ programmers supposed > to memorize whatever source code routines that make up C++ (I haven't been > to school for C, maybe its in that memorize the compiler 101 course)? Or > am I missing the point? Maybe you mean the syntax of how to use strcpy()? > I could understand you wanting that. It's a classical function to implement in C, especially in regard to pointers and strings (i.e. character arrays that end with 0). It's a nice function for demonstrating C's elegance/obfuscation. Besides that, a person that can't come up with _any_ strcpy function clearly lacks knowledge of either pointers, strings, or both. To my understanding C++ has a 'string' type and avoids pointers as much as possible, so I suppose that's another matter. void strcpy(char *to, char *from) { while (*to++ = *from++); } > > 2) I have no idea how to do Object Oriented programming.. of course maybe > thats why I don't have a programming job and you do. All that class, > object, method, inheritance garbage confuses me to death. And, it sounds > suspiciously like it was made up by someone that considered Goto as > harmful. ;) I've given Smalltalk (one of the first (_the_ first?) OO language) a look and the concept and design of it is elegant and simple. Pretty much everything of it is implemented in the standard library, i.e. (10 < 11) ifTrue: [...] ! works like this: (10 < 11) creates a new boolean object, which is true, so we have 'true ifTrue: [...] !'. We use the method ifTrue: with that object and it executes the block that follows, if the object is true. Other than that I've never had much of a look at OOP and certainly not done any programming in the style. I've always had the feeling that it's mainly a buzzword and that people that don't use it, don't really miss it, though I suppose it might make sense in certain cases. > > Jeff > > > On Sat, 23 Jun 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > > I'm too depressed to go on writing this -- not because I've learned > > the extent of my own ignorance, but because the "average C++ > > programmer" knows even less. We've been interviewing programmers > > at work lately, and we had a guy in last week who had a 4-year > > degree with a 3.5 GPA and 4 years industry experience who > > couldn't write the standard C library routine "strcpy()". Yes, > > it's rattling to have to do that at a whitboard, with an audience > > who holds your employment prospects in their hands, but still. > > > > Bleah. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 00:55:48 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Language war (not a GEB war, though) Brian Connors wrote: > --- Chris Pressey wrote: > > Weeks ago I took Hofstader's "Escher, Godel, Bach" See, it didn't even impress me enough for me to remember his order for those names :) > > out of the library... > > it's due back today, so I guess I had better give my > > book report on it now. > > I didn't really like it enough to read the whole > > thing... kind of geeky > > for my taste. It confirmed what I didn't really > > like about his style. > > Too much awe, not enough whimsey. Isn't it enough > > for Bach's music to > > just be pretty? I mean, by DH's definition, *any* > > loop is a "strange > > loop". 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 would be a "strange > > loop" - look at how > > the rightmost digit mysteriously comes full circle > > and uncannily becomes > > zero once again. Ooh! Spooky! Tell me more. > Maybe that's Hofstadter's point -- this stuff is > everywhere. Granted the universe is basically a strange place. I suppose I just like even stranger stuff than this, purely a taste thing. Bach and Escher are mathematically explicable, formally describable in a straightforward manner... in short, geeky, I suppose. And geeky is fine in small doses, but GEB is just... too much for me. I'd prefer "Godel, Eben, Bjork" :) Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > Chris, stay away from Clifford Pickover's books, if you thought > Hofstadter too easily awed and/or too full of himself. Heh... that goes for a lot of authors I can't stand. At least DH isn't very pretentious. He's just a little... what's the word... starry-eyed? > Anyway, I don't want to start a "GEB rules/GEB sucks" war; No, definately not the point. It's not that it's a *bad* book, it's just that I don't personally like it all that much. It's worth reading if you're a math geek. > instead, > I'll try and start a language flamewar. Yay! In that case, may I just say, off the bat, that I am totally, utterly convinced that Erlang is CLEARLY the one true programming language, and that all other programming languages are merely poor imitations of Erlang. > [...] > Now, I consider myself a moderately strong C++ programmer; I know > there are aspects of the language that I'm weak in (exception > handling, to pick one), but felt like I had a solid grasp of the > basics. That is, until I picked up Herb Sutter's "Exceptional > C++"[1]. After reading this book, I feel like working in C++, > and by extension, working on my current project, or at my current > place of employment, or in the game industry, or in the computer > industry, is begging to fail. (Again.[2]) Welcome to reality. Have you ever heard of an event in the history of software called the "Software Crisis"? It was never really solved. The speed of technological development just surpassed it - dwarfed it. The basic problem (that software written in modern-day mainstream programming languages is not cost-effective to develop and maintain) has not been solved, at least, not in the real world, where we're all still using languages which are ridiculously complex, convoluted, obfuscable, awkward, and badly-insulated. That goes especially for Business BASIC, Perl, and C++. > The book is a collection of programming puzzles of the "what > does this do? is this the best way to do this? what are the > pros and cons of this versus that?" variety, around advanced > C++ topics. I haven't even been able to face half of the > articles in it, but even so, I've learned a lot of scary things > about C++ (e.g. Koenig lookup, which as far as I can tell is > the introduction of a completely non-intuitive rule introduced > so that you can get away with forgetting to type "using namespace > std;"). Writing good code is about habit and discipline. Unfortunately most of the "discipline" provided by the mainstream language is an artefact of the compiler, and it only barely resembles how you'd describe the algorithm to (for example) another human. If Sutter is writing puzzles, he's probably kind of into esoteric topics (read: bizarre and ungodly hacks) too. He's just discussing them in a different medium. I checked out the link and thought about some of them, but not being a C++ programmer, I hadn't a clue. > I'm too depressed to go on writing this -- not because I've learned > the extent of my own ignorance, but because the "average C++ > programmer" knows even less. "What qualifications do you have to ride on the space shuttle?" "None, but that doesn't appear to disqualify me." -- Dilbert Chris -- If ONE cow can't go faster than one times the speed of light, then how much faster than the speed of light can't THREE cows go??? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 01:14:15 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: OO programming Jeff Johnston wrote: > 2) I have no idea how to do Object Oriented programming.. of course maybe > thats why I don't have a programming job and you do. All that class, > object, method, inheritance garbage confuses me to death. And, it sounds > suspiciously like it was made up by someone that considered Goto as > harmful. ;) GOTO is very powerful magic :) And power in the wrong hands can be dangerous... I find most people fascinated by OO programming are sort of, uh, rabid taxonomists who want to classify the hell out of reality. They miss the more important point of OO which seems to me to be: entities 'talking' to each other through established interfaces (passing data with some sort of 'polite' call instead of just 'impolitely' POKE'ing it somewhere.) This sort of 'civilized design' is probably more important than OO, in the long run, because it's a bit more general: it gives rise to the ideas in OO, which is sort of a loose set of tools, any of which could be applied independently of the others. I personally prefer functional programming to OO (at least as it's seen in C++ and Java.) The things you can do with the set of toys they call OO, you can also do with any number of other sets of similar toys (like behaviours in Erlang.) Chris -- "48988659276962496 (discovered independently by Wilson), 391909274215699968, and 490593422681271000 can be written in 5 ways as the sum of two positive cubes." -- D.J. Bernstein ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 01:30:13 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Object-o-mania "markus.kliegl" wrote: > > 2) I have no idea how to do Object Oriented programming.. of course maybe > > thats why I don't have a programming job and you do. All that class, > > object, method, inheritance garbage confuses me to death. And, it sounds > > suspiciously like it was made up by someone that considered Goto as > > harmful. ;) > I've given Smalltalk (one of the first (_the_ first?) OO language) *I'd* call it the first, although some people will argue that it's Simula. I'm not sure that I agree - Simula was the first use of classes, I think, but I'm not sure about some of the other things, like inheritance. Smalltalk better understood the 'polite communication' thing, though. > Other than that I've never had much of a look at OOP and certainly not > done any programming in the style. I've always had the feeling that it's > mainly a buzzword and that people that don't use it, don't really miss it, > though I suppose it might make sense in certain cases. I like to think of it as a useful set of concepts. You have classes, which provide a uniform definition for the common attributes of objects. You have inheritance, so that one class can be based on another. You have polymorphism, so that objects can be treated on general terms, without knowing entirely what they are. I think the biggest problem is people going trigger-happy with inheritance; getting a bit starry-eyed from the power of constructing an identity hierarchy which 'gets everything in without a clash.' It's very fun to play with so people go nuts with it without really asking why they're doing this again, what problem are they trying to solve, what situation are they trying to address; instead they get lost amongst their objects. On the other hand, in the hands of someone who's paying attention and isn't quite so fascinated by it, those tools can come together to form a very expressive and effective programming style which facilitates engineering and maintenance. Chris -- This sentence will be false in 20 seconds starting..... NOW! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 00:40:07 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: [lang] [BF] how to comment your code more freely Just a small FYI. At the beginning of your program or after a loop you can insert any kind of characters you want in a comment by enclosing the comment in []. You can even use [] inside the comment as long as they are all matched. Example: [http://www.catseye.mb.ca/esoteric/bf, --echo-- program follows] ,+[-.,+] [See? Works [fine].] OK, yeah you probably knew.. but just thought I'd throw it out there anyways :) I'd guess there is the argument that BF code should not be commented.. but I don't go along with that. Jeff I've been doing too much BF coding lately ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:32:19 +0200 (CEST) From: markus.kliegl@t-online.de (markus.kliegl) Subject: [Ocaml] Misusing the type system for fun and profit To continue the language war... Ocaml (or ML in general) is definitely the coolest (or at least most fun). Here's an example of abusing the type system :-) type hitpoints = int type hit = Kick | Punch type player = int * hitpoints type move = player * player * hit * hitpoints type fight = Death of player | Attack of move * fight let the_fight = Attack (((1, 20), (2, 20), Kick, 10), Attack (((2, 10), (1, 20), Punch, 12), Attack (((1, 8), (2, 10), Kick, 10), Death (2, 0)))) let rec show_fight = function Death (pl, _) -> Printf.printf "Player %d lost!\n" pl | Attack (((pl, hp), (pl2, hp2), hit_type, dam), next) -> (Printf.printf "Player %d(%d) %s player %d(%d), causing %d hitpoints damage!\n" pl hp (match hit_type with Kick -> "kicks" | Punch -> "punches") pl2 hp2 dam); show_fight next When running 'show_fight the_fight', the following appears: Player 1(20) kicks Player 2(20), causing 10 hitpoints damage! Player 2(10) punches Player 1(20), causing 12 hitpoints damage! Player 1(8) kicks Player 2(10), causing 10 hitpoints damage! Player 2 lost! A generate_fight function can be made in a similar manner. Well, that was abusing the type system... now go have a look at ML's module system (which is the actual beauty of ML). :-) I'm really starting to take a liking to Mercury, but I haven't found anything worth abusing with it yet :-) Markus ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [uglify.py] Beta 1 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:29:29 +0100 uglify.py Beta 1 Is here: http://www.p-nand-q.com/uglify/uglify.zip Currently, there are no command line options, you need to edit config.py. Comments & Ideas welcome. Needs Python 2.0 or higher. The C/C++ parser is more efficient than I previously thought. Here is an implementation of the DES cryptographic algorithm made with uglify.py: #include "precomp.h" #define ooooo "des.h" #define Ooooo "precomp.h" #define loooo & #define Ioooo &= #define oOooo * #define OOooo + #define lOooo ++ #define IOooo += #define olooo - #define Olooo -= #define llooo -> #define Ilooo 0 #define oIooo 0x00000000 #define OIooo 0x00000001 #define lIooo 0x00000002 #define IIooo 0x00000003 #define ooOoo 0x00000004 #define OoOoo 0x00000008 #define loOoo 0x00000009 #define IoOoo 0x00000010 #define oOOoo 0x00000020 #define OOOoo 0x00000022 #define lOOoo 0x00000030 #define IOOoo 0x00000040 #define olOoo 0x00000080 #define OlOoo 0x00000081 #define llOoo 0x000000ff #define IlOoo 0x00000100 #define oIOoo 0x00000108 #define OIOoo 0x00000110 #define lIOoo 0x00000200 #define IIOoo 0x00000201 #define ooloo 0x00000202 #define Ooloo 0x00000203 #define loloo 0x00000210 #define Ioloo 0x00000300 #define oOloo 0x00000310 #define OOloo 0x00000400 #define lOloo 0x00000401 #define IOloo 0x00000402 #define olloo 0x00000404 #define Olloo 0x00000408 #define llloo 0x00000409 #define Illoo 0x00000800 #define oIloo 0x00000802 #define OIloo 0x00000810 #define lIloo 0x00000820 #define IIloo 0x00000822 #define ooIoo 0x00000830 #define OoIoo 0x00001000 #define loIoo 0x00001001 #define IoIoo 0x00001004 #define oOIoo 0x00001008 #define OOIoo 0x00001080 #define lOIoo 0x00001081 #define IOIoo 0x00001100 #define olIoo 0x00001108 #define OlIoo 0x00002000 #define llIoo 0x00002002 #define IlIoo 0x00002004 #define oIIoo 0x00002020 #define OIIoo 0x00002022 #define lIIoo 0x00002400 #define IIIoo 0x00002404 #define oooOo 0x00002800 #define OooOo 0x00002802 #define looOo 0x00002820 #define IooOo 0x00002822 #define oOoOo 0x00004000 #define OOoOo 0x00004008 #define lOoOo 0x00004100 #define IOoOo 0x00004108 #define oloOo 0x00008000 #define OloOo 0x00008020 #define lloOo 0x0000ff00 #define IloOo 0x0000ffff #define oIoOo 0x00010000 #define OIoOo 0x00010004 #define lIoOo 0x00010010 #define IIoOo 0x00010020 #define ooOOo 0x00010030 #define OoOOo 0x00010040 #define loOOo 0x00010800 #define IoOOo 0x00010810 #define oOOOo 0x00010820 #define OOOOo 0x00010830 #define lOOOo 0x00011000 #define IOOOo 0x00011004 #define olOOo 0x00020000 #define OlOOo 0x00020001 #define llOOo 0x00020008 #define IlOOo 0x00020009 #define oIOOo 0x00020100 #define OIOOo 0x00020108 #define lIOOo 0x00020200 #define IIOOo 0x00020400 #define oolOo 0x00020401 #define OolOo 0x00020408 #define lolOo 0x00020409 #define IolOo 0x00021000 #define oOlOo 0x00021008 #define OOlOo 0x00021100 #define lOlOo 0x00021108 #define IOlOo 0x00040000 #define ollOo 0x00040001 #define OllOo 0x00040002 #define lllOo 0x00040003 #define IllOo 0x00040004 #define oIlOo 0x00040020 #define OIlOo 0x00040022 #define lIlOo 0x00040200 #define IIlOo 0x00040201 #define ooIOo 0x00040202 #define OoIOo 0x00040203 #define loIOo 0x00040800 #define IoIOo 0x00040802 #define oOIOo 0x00040820 #define OOIOo 0x00040822 #define lOIOo 0x00042000 #define IOIOo 0x00042002 #define olIOo 0x00042004 #define OlIOo 0x00042020 #define llIOo 0x00042022 #define IlIOo 0x00042800 #define oIIOo 0x00042802 #define OIIOo 0x00042820 #define lIIOo 0x00042822 #define IIIOo 0x00080000 #define ooolo 0x00080010 #define Ooolo 0x00080020 #define loolo 0x00080030 #define Ioolo 0x00080100 #define oOolo 0x00080110 #define OOolo 0x00080200 #define lOolo 0x00080210 #define IOolo 0x00080300 #define ololo 0x00080310 #define Ololo 0x00080800 #define llolo 0x00080810 #define Ilolo 0x00080820 #define oIolo 0x00080830 #define OIolo 0x00090000 #define lIolo 0x00090010 #define IIolo 0x00090020 #define ooOlo 0x00090030 #define OoOlo 0x00090800 #define loOlo 0x00090810 #define IoOlo 0x00090820 #define oOOlo 0x00090830 #define OOOlo 0x00100000 #define lOOlo 0x00100002 #define IOOlo 0x00100004 #define olOlo 0x00100008 #define OlOlo 0x00100100 #define llOlo 0x00100108 #define IlOlo 0x00100400 #define oIOlo 0x00100402 #define OIOlo 0x00101000 #define lIOlo 0x00101004 #define IIOlo 0x00101008 #define oollo 0x00101100 #define Oollo 0x00101108 #define lollo 0x00110000 #define Iollo 0x00110004 #define oOllo 0x00111000 #define OOllo 0x00111004 #define lOllo 0x00120000 #define IOllo 0x00120008 #define olllo 0x00120100 #define Olllo 0x00120108 #define llllo 0x00121000 #define Illlo 0x00121008 #define oIllo 0x00121100 #define OIllo 0x00121108 #define lIllo 0x00200000 #define IIllo 0x00200004 #define ooIlo 0x00200010 #define OoIlo 0x00200020 #define loIlo 0x00200100 #define IoIlo 0x00200110 #define oOIlo 0x00200200 #define OOIlo 0x00200210 #define lOIlo 0x00200300 #define IOIlo 0x00200310 #define olIlo 0x00200400 #define OlIlo 0x00200404 #define llIlo 0x00202000 #define IlIlo 0x00202004 #define oIIlo 0x00202400 #define OIIlo 0x00202404 #define lIIlo 0x00208000 #define IIIlo 0x00208020 #define oooIo 0x00280000 #define OooIo 0x00280010 #define looIo 0x00280100 #define IooIo 0x00280110 #define oOoIo 0x00280200 #define OOoIo 0x00280210 #define lOoIo 0x00280300 #define IOoIo 0x00280310 #define oloIo 0x00400000 #define OloIo 0x00400001 #define lloIo 0x00400080 #define IloIo 0x00400081 #define oIoIo 0x00401000 #define OIoIo 0x00401001 #define lIoIo 0x00401080 #define IIoIo 0x00401081 #define ooOIo 0x00800000 #define OoOIo 0x00800200 #define loOIo 0x00820000 #define IoOIo 0x00820200 #define oOOIo 0x00ff0000 #define OOOIo 0x00ff00ff #define lOOIo 0x01 #define IOOIo 0x0100 #define olOIo 0x01000000 #define OlOIo 0x01000001 #define llOIo 0x01000002 #define IlOIo 0x01000003 #define oIOIo 0x01000010 #define OIOIo 0x01000040 #define lIOIo 0x01000100 #define IIOIo 0x01000110 #define oolIo 0x01000200 #define OolIo 0x01000201 #define lolIo 0x01000202 #define IolIo 0x01000203 #define oOlIo 0x01000210 #define OOlIo 0x01000300 #define lOlIo 0x01000310 #define IOlIo 0x01010000 #define ollIo 0x01010040 #define OllIo 0x01040000 #define lllIo 0x01040001 #define IllIo 0x01040002 #define oIlIo 0x01040003 #define OIlIo 0x01040200 #define lIlIo 0x01040201 #define IIlIo 0x01040202 #define ooIIo 0x01040203 #define OoIIo 0x01080000 #define loIIo 0x01080010 #define IoIIo 0x01080100 #define oOIIo 0x01080110 #define OOIIo 0x01080200 #define lOIIo 0x01080210 #define IOIIo 0x01080300 #define olIIo 0x01080310 #define OlIIo 0x01200000 #define llIIo 0x01200010 #define IlIIo 0x01200100 #define oIIIo 0x01200110 #define OIIIo 0x01200200 #define lIIIo 0x01200210 #define IIIIo 0x01200300 #define ooooO 0x01200310 #define OoooO 0x01280000 #define loooO 0x01280010 #define IoooO 0x01280100 #define oOooO 0x01280110 #define OOooO 0x01280200 #define lOooO 0x01280210 #define IOooO 0x01280300 #define olooO 0x01280310 #define OlooO 0x0200 #define llooO 0x02000000 #define IlooO 0x02000001 #define oIooO 0x02000004 #define OIooO 0x02000008 #define lIooO 0x02000009 #define IIooO 0x02000100 #define ooOoO 0x02000108 #define OoOoO 0x02000400 #define loOoO 0x02000401 #define IoOoO 0x02000404 #define oOOoO 0x02000408 #define OOOoO 0x02000409 #define lOOoO 0x02002000 #define IOOoO 0x02002004 #define olOoO 0x02002400 #define OlOoO 0x02002404 #define llOoO 0x02004000 #define IlOoO 0x02004008 #define oIOoO 0x02004100 #define OIOoO 0x02004108 #define lIOoO 0x02020000 #define IIOoO 0x02020001 #define ooloO 0x02020008 #define OoloO 0x02020009 #define loloO 0x02020400 #define IoloO 0x02020401 #define oOloO 0x02020408 #define OOloO 0x02020409 #define lOloO 0x02200000 #define IOloO 0x02200004 #define olloO 0x02200400 #define OlloO 0x02200404 #define llloO 0x02202000 #define IlloO 0x02202004 #define oIloO 0x02202400 #define OIloO 0x02202404 #define lIloO 0x03 #define IIloO 0x0300 #define ooIoO 0x0400 #define OoIoO 0x04000000 #define loIoO 0x04000002 #define IoIoO 0x04000008 #define oOIoO 0x04000020 #define OOIoO 0x04000022 #define lOIoO 0x04000100 #define IOIoO 0x04000108 #define olIoO 0x04000400 #define OlIoO 0x04000402 #define llIoO 0x04000800 #define IlIoO 0x04000802 #define oIIoO 0x04000820 #define OIIoO 0x04000822 #define lIIoO 0x04001000 #define IIIoO 0x04001008 #define oooOO 0x04001100 #define OooOO 0x04001108 #define looOO 0x04002000 #define IooOO 0x04002002 #define oOoOO 0x04002020 #define OOoOO 0x04002022 #define lOoOO 0x04002800 #define IOoOO 0x04002802 #define oloOO 0x04002820 #define OloOO 0x04002822 #define lloOO 0x04020000 #define IloOO 0x04020008 #define oIoOO 0x04020100 #define OIoOO 0x04020108 #define lIoOO 0x04021000 #define IIoOO 0x04021008 #define ooOOO 0x04021100 #define OoOOO 0x04021108 #define loOOO 0x04040000 #define IoOOO 0x04040002 #define oOOOO 0x04040020 #define OOOOO 0x04040022 #define lOOOO 0x04040800 #define IOOOO 0x04040802 #define olOOO 0x04040820 #define OlOOO 0x04040822 #define llOOO 0x04042000 #define IlOOO 0x04042002 #define oIOOO 0x04042020 #define OIOOO 0x04042022 #define lIOOO 0x04042800 #define IIOOO 0x04042802 #define oolOO 0x04042820 #define OolOO 0x04042822 #define lolOO 0x04100000 #define IolOO 0x04100002 #define oOlOO 0x04100008 #define OOlOO 0x04100100 #define lOlOO 0x04100108 #define IOlOO 0x04100400 #define ollOO 0x04100402 #define OllOO 0x04101000 #define lllOO 0x04101008 #define IllOO 0x04101100 #define oIlOO 0x04101108 #define OIlOO 0x04120000 #define lIlOO 0x04120008 #define IIlOO 0x04120100 #define ooIOO 0x04120108 #define OoIOO 0x04121000 #define loIOO 0x04121008 #define IoIOO 0x04121100 #define oOIOO 0x04121108 #define OOIOO 0x0500 #define lOIOO 0x06 #define IOIOO 0x0600 #define olIOO 0x0700 #define OlIOO 0x08000000 #define llIOO 0x08000001 #define IlIOO 0x08000002 #define oIIOO 0x08000003 #define OIIOO 0x08000008 #define lIIOO 0x08000009 #define IIIOO 0x08000020 #define ooolO 0x08000200 #define OoolO 0x08000201 #define loolO 0x08000202 #define IoolO 0x08000203 #define oOolO 0x08000400 #define OOolO 0x08000401 #define lOolO 0x08000408 #define IOolO 0x08000409 #define ololO 0x08008000 #define OlolO 0x08008020 #define llolO 0x08020000 #define IlolO 0x08020001 #define oIolO 0x08020008 #define OIolO 0x08020009 #define lIolO 0x08020400 #define IIolO 0x08020401 #define ooOlO 0x08020408 #define OoOlO 0x08020409 #define loOlO 0x08040000 #define IoOlO 0x08040001 #define oOOlO 0x08040002 #define OOOlO 0x08040003 #define lOOlO 0x08040200 #define IOOlO 0x08040201 #define olOlO 0x08040202 #define OlOlO 0x08040203 #define llOlO 0x08200000 #define IlOlO 0x08200020 #define oIOlO 0x08208000 #define OIOlO 0x08208020 #define lIOlO 0x09000000 #define IIOlO 0x09000001 #define oollO 0x09000002 #define OollO 0x09000003 #define lollO 0x09000200 #define IollO 0x09000201 #define oOllO 0x09000202 #define OOllO 0x09000203 #define lOllO 0x09040000 #define IOllO 0x09040001 #define olllO 0x09040002 #define OlllO 0x09040003 #define llllO 0x09040200 #define IlllO 0x09040201 #define oIllO 0x09040202 #define OIllO 0x09040203 #define lIllO 0x0A000000 #define IIllO 0x0A000001 #define ooIlO 0x0A000008 #define OoIlO 0x0A000009 #define loIlO 0x0A000400 #define IoIlO 0x0A000401 #define oOIlO 0x0A000408 #define OOIlO 0x0A000409 #define lOIlO 0x0A020000 #define IOIlO 0x0A020001 #define olIlO 0x0A020008 #define OlIlO 0x0A020009 #define llIlO 0x0A020400 #define IlIlO 0x0A020401 #define oIIlO 0x0A020408 #define OIIlO 0x0A020409 #define lIIlO 0x0f #define IIIlO 0x0f0f0f0f #define oooIO 0x0fffffff #define OooIO 0x10000000 #define looIO 0x10000004 #define IooIO 0x10000400 #define oOoIO 0x10000404 #define OOoIO 0x10001000 #define lOoIO 0x10001004 #define IOoIO 0x10002000 #define oloIO 0x10002004 #define OloIO 0x10002400 #define lloIO 0x10002404 #define IloIO 0x10010000 #define oIoIO 0x10010004 #define OIoIO 0x10011000 #define lIoIO 0x10011004 #define IIoIO 0x10040000 #define ooOIO 0x10040004 #define OoOIO 0x10042000 #define loOIO 0x10042004 #define IoOIO 0x10100000 #define oOOIO 0x10100004 #define OOOIO 0x10101000 #define lOOIO 0x10101004 #define IOOIO 0x10110000 #define olOIO 0x10110004 #define OlOIO 0x10111000 #define llOIO 0x10111004 #define IlOIO 0x10200000 #define oIOIO 0x10200004 #define OIOIO 0x10200400 #define lIOIO 0x10200404 #define IIOIO 0x10202000 #define oolIO 0x10202004 #define OolIO 0x10202400 #define lolIO 0x10202404 #define IolIO 0x12000000 #define oOlIO 0x12000004 #define OOlIO 0x12000400 #define lOlIO 0x12000404 #define IOlIO 0x12002000 #define ollIO 0x12002004 #define OllIO 0x12002400 #define lllIO 0x12002404 #define IllIO 0x12200000 #define oIlIO 0x12200004 #define OIlIO 0x12200400 #define lIlIO 0x12200404 #define IIlIO 0x12202000 #define ooIIO 0x12202004 #define OoIIO 0x12202400 #define loIIO 0x12202404 #define IoIIO 0x20000000 #define oOIIO 0x20000004 #define OOIIO 0x20000010 #define lOIIO 0x20000020 #define IOIIO 0x20000030 #define olIIO 0x20000800 #define OlIIO 0x20000810 #define llIIO 0x20000820 #define IlIIO 0x20000830 #define oIIIO 0x20001000 #define OIIIO 0x20001004 #define lIIIO 0x20010000 #define IIIIO 0x20010004 #define ooool 0x20010010 #define Ooool 0x20010020 #define loool 0x20010030 #define Ioool 0x20010800 #define oOool 0x20010810 #define OOool 0x20010820 #define lOool 0x20010830 #define IOool 0x20011000 #define olool 0x20011004 #define Olool 0x20080000 #define llool 0x20080010 #define Ilool 0x20080020 #define oIool 0x20080030 #define OIool 0x20080800 #define lIool 0x20080810 #define IIool 0x20080820 #define ooOol 0x20080830 #define OoOol 0x20090000 #define loOol 0x20090010 #define IoOol 0x20090020 #define oOOol 0x20090030 #define OOOol 0x20090800 #define lOOol 0x20090810 #define IOOol 0x20090820 #define olOol 0x20090830 #define OlOol 0x20100000 #define llOol 0x20100004 #define IlOol 0x20101000 #define oIOol 0x20101004 #define OIOol 0x20110000 #define lIOol 0x20110004 #define IIOol 0x20111000 #define oolol 0x20111004 #define Oolol 0x30 #define lolol 0x30000000 #define Iolol 0x30000004 #define oOlol 0x30001000 #define OOlol 0x30001004 #define lOlol 0x30010000 #define IOlol 0x30010004 #define ollol 0x30011000 #define Ollol 0x30011004 #define lllol 0x30100000 #define Illol 0x30100004 #define oIlol 0x30101000 #define OIlol 0x30101004 #define lIlol 0x30110000 #define IIlol 0x30110004 #define ooIol 0x30111000 #define OoIol 0x30111004 #define loIol 0x33333333 #define IoIol 0x38 #define oOIol 0x3c #define OOIol 0x3f #define lOIol 0x40000000 #define IOIol 0x40000040 #define olIol 0x40010000 #define OlIol 0x40010040 #define llIol 0x41000000 #define IlIol 0x41000040 #define oIIol 0x41010000 #define OIIol 0x41010040 #define lIIol 0x55555555 #define IIIol 0x80000000 #define oooOl 0x80000200 #define OooOl 0x80020000 #define looOl 0x80020200 #define IooOl 0x80800000 #define oOoOl 0x80800200 #define OOoOl 0x80820000 #define lOoOl 0x80820200 #define IOoOl 0xcccc0000 #define oloOl 0xf0000000 #define OloOl 0xfc #define lloOl 0xff #define IloOl 0xffff0000 #define oIoOl 0xffffffff #define OIoOl 1 #define lIoOl 13 #define IIoOl 14 #define ooOOl 15 #define OoOOl 16 #define loOOl 2 #define IoOOl 20 #define oOOOl 21 #define OOOOl 22 #define lOOOl 24 #define IOOOl 26 #define olOOl 27 #define OlOOl 28 #define llOOl 3 #define IlOOl 30 #define oIOOl 31 #define OIOOl 32 #define lIOOl 4 #define IIOOl 5 #define oolOl 6 #define OolOl 64 #define lolOl 7 #define IolOl 8 #define oOlOl ; #define OOlOl < #define lOlOl << #define IOlOl = #define ollOl == #define OllOl > #define lllOl >> #define IllOl ALT_ECB #define oIlOl BYTE #define OIlOl Byte #define lIlOl DESMODE_DECRYPT #define IIlOl DESMODE_ENCRYPT #define ooIOl DWORD #define OoIOl D_ENCRYPT #define loIOl HPERM_OP #define IoIOl ITERATIONS #define oOIOl L #define OOIOl LPBYTE #define lOIOl LPDES_CODEBLOCK #define IOIOl LPDES_KEY_SCHEDULE #define olIOl LPDWORD #define OlIOl PERM_OP #define llIOl R #define IlIOl S #define oIIOl [ #define OIIOl ] #define lIIOl ^ #define IIIOl ^= #define oooll a #define Oooll b #define looll c #define Iooll c2l #define oOoll char #define OOoll d #define lOoll des_SP #define IOoll des_SPtrans #define ololl des_ecb_encrypt #define Ololl des_encrypt #define lloll des_key_sched #define Iloll des_set_key #define oIoll des_skb #define OIoll else #define lIoll encrypt #define IIoll for #define ooOll i #define OoOll if #define loOll in #define IoOll input #define oOOll int #define OOOll k #define lOOll key #define IOOll ks #define olOll ks1 #define OlOll ks2 #define llOll ks3 #define IlOll l #define oIOll l0 #define OIOll l1 #define lIOll l2c #define IIOll ll #define oolll m #define Oolll mode #define lolll n #define Iolll out #define oOlll output #define OOlll r #define lOlll return #define IOlll s #define ollll schedule #define Ollll shifts2 #define lllll static #define Illll t #define oIlll triple_des_ecb_encrypt #define OIlll u #define lIlll unsigned #define IIlll update_ks #define ooIll void #define OoIll { #define loIll | #define IoIll |= #define oOIll } #include "precomp.h" #include "des.h" #define c2l( c , l ) ( l = ( ( DWORD ) ( * ( ( c ) ++ ) ) ) , l |= ( ( DWORD ) ( * ( ( c ) ++ ) ) ) << 8 , l |= ( ( DWORD ) ( * ( ( c ) ++ ) ) ) << 16 , l |= ( ( DWORD ) ( * ( ( c ) ++ ) ) ) << 24 ) #define l2c( l , c ) ( * ( ( c ) ++ ) = ( BYTE ) ( ( ( l ) ) & 0xff ) , * ( ( c ) ++ ) = ( BYTE ) ( ( ( l ) >> 8 ) & 0xff ) , * ( ( c ) ++ ) = ( BYTE ) ( ( ( l ) >> 16 ) & 0xff ) , * ( ( c ) ++ ) = ( BYTE ) ( ( ( l ) >> 24 ) & 0xff ) ) lllll oOOll Ololl ( olIOl IoOll , olIOl oOlll , IOIOl IOOll , oOOll lIoll ) oOlOl lllll oOOll Iloll ( lOIOl lOOll , IOIOl ollll ) oOlOl ooIOl IOoll oIIOl IolOl OIIOl oIIOl OolOl OIIOl IOlOl OoIll IoOIo , olOOo , IooOl , lOoOl , ooOIo , looOl , OooOl , IooOl , looOl , IoOIo , loOIo , oooOl , oOoOl , ooOIo , oIooo , OooOl , olOOo , IIIol , OoOIo , lIOOo , lOoOl , loOIo , oooOl , OoOIo , IIIol , lIOoo , lIOOo , OOoOl , lIOoo , oOoOl , OOoOl , oIooo , oIooo , lOoOl , OoOIo , OooOl , IoOIo , olOOo , oooOl , OoOIo , OOoOl , lIOoo , lIOOo , IooOl , looOl , IIIol , IooOl , loOIo , lOoOl , lIOOo , loOIo , oOoOl , ooOIo , oooOl , OooOl , oIooo , olOOo , ooOIo , oOoOl , IoOIo , IIIol , OOoOl , lIOoo , looOl , loOIO , oIooo , lOIOo , IIoIO , looIO , IlIoo , IOoIO , lOIOo , OlIoo , ooOIO , ooOoo , IOoIO , IllOo , OoOIO , IIoIO , ooOoo , IOlOo , oloIO , ooOIO , OlIoo , olIOo , OooIO , oIooo , IllOo , oloIO , olIOo , OoOIO , looIO , OooIO , IOlOo , IlIoo , loOIO , IllOo , OoOIO , IOoIO , olIOo , loOIO , IllOo , looIO , oIooo , OooIO , IlIoo , IOlOo , ooOIO , OlIoo , OooIO , olIOo , oloIO , OoOIO , OlIoo , oIooo , looIO , ooOoo , loOIO , lOIOo , IIoIO , ooOIO , IOlOo , IlIoo , IOoIO , oloIO , ooOoo , IIoIO , lOIOo , llIol , ollIo , IOOoo , IlIol , olIol , olOIo , IlIol , OoOOo , OIOIo , oIoOo , IOlIo , lOIol , OIIol , IOIol , lOIol , oIIol , oIooo , olIol , ollIo , IOOoo , IOIol , OIIol , oIoOo , llIol , oIIol , OIOIo , OlIol , IOlIo , OoOOo , oIooo , olOIo , OlIol , ollIo , IOOoo , lOIol , oIoOo , IOIol , olIol , IOlIo , IlIol , oIooo , ollIo , OoOOo , oIIol , olIol , olOIo , OIIol , lOIol , OlIol , llIol , olOIo , OIIol , oIoOo , OIOIo , IlIol , OoOOo , OIOIo , oIooo , oIIol , IOIol , llIol , OlIol , IOOoo , IOlIo , oIOlo , olIoO , lIooo , ollOO , oIooo , lolOO , OlIoO , lOOlo , IOlOO , loIoO , OoIoO , IOloo , loIoO , oIOlo , OOOlo , OoIoO , IolOO , IlOlo , OOloo , lIooo , IlOlo , OlIoO , lolOO , OOloo , IOloo , oIooo , lOOlo , IOlOO , olIoO , IolOO , ollOO , OOOlo , IolOO , IOloo , OOOlo , loIoO , IlOlo , olIoO , lIooo , lolOO , OlIoO , oIooo , OOloo , lOOlo , oIooo , IolOO , IOlOO , OOloo , OoIoO , ollOO , oIOlo , OOOlo , ollOO , lIooo , olIoO , oIOlo , lOOlo , IlOlo , lolOO , OlIoO , IOloo , OoIoO , loIoO , IOlOO , llooO , oOoOo , IlOoo , OIOoO , IlOoO , IIooO , IOoOo , llOoO , oOoOo , OoOoo , OIooO , lOoOo , ooOoO , IlOoO , oIOoO , oIooo , lOoOo , llooO , OOoOo , oIOoo , IIooO , IOoOo , oIooo , OIooO , OoOoo , ooOoO , OIOoO , OOoOo , llOoO , IlOoo , oIOoo , oIOoO , oIOoO , ooOoO , OOoOo , llOoO , oOoOo , OoOoo , OIooO , IIooO , llooO , lOoOo , OIOoO , oIooo , IOoOo , llooO , IlOoo , OOoOo , ooOoO , IlOoo , oIooo , OIOoO , IlOoO , oIOoO , oIOoo , oOoOo , lOoOo , IlOoO , IIooO , oIOoo , OoOoo , IOoOo , llOoO , OIooO , OOIIO , ooolo , oIooo , OIool , ooolo , Illoo , OlIIO , IIIOo , OIloo , lIool , Ololo , IoIIO , olIIO , OOIIO , Olool , llolo , IIIOo , OlIIO , llool , oIooo , Illoo , IoOoo , OIool , llool , lIool , Olool , IoIIO , OIloo , IoOoo , Ololo , llolo , olIIO , OIloo , IoIIO , olIIO , llolo , OIool , ooolo , oIooo , olIIO , IoIIO , Illoo , llool , IIIOo , ooolo , lIool , Ololo , IoOoo , lIool , Ololo , IIIOo , OlIIO , OOIIO , Olool , llolo , oIooo , Illoo , OOIIO , OlIIO , OIool , Olool , OIloo , IoOoo , llool , OoIoo , olOoo , lloIo , OloIo , IIoIo , loIoo , OOIoo , oIooo , oloIo , IloIo , OlOoo , oIoIo , OIooo , lIoIo , oIoIo , OlOoo , IloIo , OoIoo , loIoo , IIoIo , oIooo , lloIo , OloIo , OOIoo , OIoIo , lOIoo , lIoIo , OIooo , lOIoo , OIoIo , olOoo , oloIo , lOIoo , oIoIo , OIoIo , OlOoo , OoIoo , olOoo , oloIo , OIoIo , IloIo , lOIoo , OOIoo , oIooo , olOoo , OloIo , OIooo , lloIo , oIooo , IloIo , lloIo , OOIoo , OlOoo , OoIoo , IIoIo , oloIo , lIoIo , OIooo , loIoo , IIoIo , OloIo , lIoIo , oIoIo , loIoo , IlOlO , oIOlO , OloOo , oIooo , ololO , OoIlo , llOlO , OIOlO , oOOoo , OlIOO , lIIlo , OloOo , IIIlo , OlolO , IIIOO , llOlO , oloOo , IIIlo , OoIlo , ololO , OIOlO , IIIOO , oIooo , lIIlo , OlIOO , lIllo , OlolO , IlOlO , lIllo , oloOo , oIOlO , oOOoo , lIllo , oloOo , IIIOO , OIOlO , OloOo , OlIOO , oIooo , lIIlo , IlOlO , OlolO , ololO , OoIlo , oIOlO , oOOoo , OoIlo , ololO , OIOlO , lIllo , llOlO , IIIOO , lIIlo , OloOo , OlolO , llOlO , oOOoo , oIOlO , IIIlo , oIooo , OlIOO , IlOlO , oloOo , IIIlo oOIll oOlOl ooIOl oIoll oIIOl IolOl OIIOl oIIOl OolOl OIIOl IOlOl OoIll oIooo , IoOoo , IoIIO , OOIIO , oIoOo , lIoOo , lIIIO , ooool , Illoo , OIloo , olIIO , OlIIO , loOOo , IoOOo , Ioool , oOool , oOOoo , lOOoo , lOIIO , IOIIO , IIoOo , ooOOo , Ooool , loool , lIloo , ooIoo , llIIO , IlIIO , oOOOo , OOOOo , OOool , lOool , IIIOo , ooolo , Olool , llool , OIolo , lIolo , OoOol , loOol , Ololo , llolo , OIool , lIool , OoOlo , loOlo , OOOol , lOOol , Ooolo , loolo , Ilool , oIool , IIolo , ooOlo , IoOol , oOOol , Ilolo , oIolo , IIool , ooOol , IoOlo , oOOlo , IOOol , olOol , oIooo , llooO , OlIoo , lOOoO , lIllo , lOloO , llIlo , llloO , ooOoo , oIooO , IlIoo , IOOoO , IIllo , IOloO , IlIlo , IlloO , OOloo , OoOoO , lIIoo , olOoO , olIlo , olloO , oIIlo , oIloO , olloo , IoOoO , IIIoo , OlOoO , OlIlo , OlloO , OIIlo , OIloO , OooIO , IolIO , IOoIO , IOlIO , IlOIO , IllIO , IIOIO , IIlIO , looIO , oOlIO , oloIO , ollIO , oIOIO , oIlIO , oolIO , ooIIO , IooIO , OOlIO , OloIO , OllIO , OIOIO , OIlIO , OolIO , OoIIO , oOoIO , lOlIO , lloIO , lllIO , lIOIO , lIlIO , lolIO , loIIO , oIooo , OIooo , IOlOo , ollOo , olOIo , OlOIo , OllIo , lllIo , lIooo , IIooo , OllOo , lllOo , llOIo , IlOIo , IllIo , oIlIo , lIOoo , IIOoo , lIlOo , IIlOo , oolIo , OolIo , OIlIo , lIlIo , ooloo , Ooloo , ooIOo , OoIOo , lolIo , IolIo , IIlIo , ooIIo , OlIOO , llIOO , loOlO , IoOlO , lIOlO , IIOlO , lOllO , IOllO , IlIOO , oIIOO , oOOlO , OOOlO , oollO , OollO , olllO , OlllO , ooolO , OoolO , lOOlO , IOOlO , lollO , IollO , llllO , IlllO , loolO , IoolO , olOlO , OlOlO , oOllO , OOllO , oIllO , OIllO , oIooo , OOOlo , IlOoo , OlOlo , OoOoo , olOlo , oIOoo , llOlo , OoIoo , OIOlo , IOIoo , oollo , oOIoo , IIOlo , olIoo , Oollo , OoIoO , lolOO , lOIoO , OOlOO , IoIoO , oOlOO , IOIoO , lOlOO , lIIoO , OllOO , oooOO , IllOO , IIIoO , lllOO , OooOO , oIlOO , olOOo , lOllo , oIOOo , olllo , llOOo , IOllo , OIOOo , Olllo , IolOo , llllo , OOlOo , oIllo , oOlOo , Illlo , lOlOo , OIllo , lloOO , OIlOO , oIoOO , IIlOO , IloOO , lIlOO , OIoOO , ooIOO , lIoOO , OoIOO , ooOOO , IoIOO , IIoOO , loIOO , OoOOO , oOIOO , oIooo , OooIO , oIoOo , IloIO , ooOoo , looIO , OIoOo , oIoIO , IoIIO , lolol , lIIIO , lOlol , oOIIO , Iolol , IIIIO , IOlol , OOOlo , IoOIO , lollo , IOOIO , IOOlo , oOOIO , Iollo , olOIO , OlOol , lllol , OIOol , lIlol , llOol , Illol , lIOol , IIlol , OoIoo , OOoIO , lOOOo , OIoIO , IoIoo , lOoIO , IOOOo , lIoIO , oIIIO , oOlol , IOool , ollol , OIIIO , OOlol , olool , Ollol , OIOlo , OOOIO , oOllo , OlOIO , lIOlo , lOOIO , OOllo , llOIO , IlOol , oIlol , IIOol , ooIol , oIOol , OIlol , oolol , OoIol , oIooo , OlIOO , OoOoo , OIIOO , OOloo , oOolO , Olloo , lOolO , olOOo , llolO , llOOo , oIolO , IIOOo , lIolO , OolOo , ooOlO , OIooo , llIOO , loOoo , lIIOO , lOloo , OOolO , llloo , IOolO , OlOOo , IlolO , IlOOo , OIolO , oolOo , IIolO , lolOo , OoOlO , llooO , lIllO , OIooO , ooIlO , OoOoO , loIlO , oOOoO , oOIlO , lIOoO , lOIlO , ooloO , olIlO , loloO , llIlO , oOloO , oIIlO , IlooO , IIllO , lIooO , OoIlO , loOoO , IoIlO , OOOoO , OOIlO , IIOoO , IOIlO , OoloO , OlIlO , IoloO , IlIlO , OOloO , OIIlO , oIooo , IlOoo , IIIOo , Ioolo , olOIo , lIOIo , OoIIo , IoIIo , IoOoo , OIOoo , ooolo , oOolo , oIOIo , IIOIo , loIIo , oOIIo , lIllo , loIlo , oooIo , looIo , OlIIo , IlIIo , OoooO , IoooO , ooIlo , IoIlo , OooIo , IooIo , llIIo , oIIIo , loooO , oOooO , lIOoo , Ioloo , OOolo , IOolo , oolIo , OOlIo , OOIIo , IOIIo , loloo , oOloo , lOolo , ololo , oOlIo , lOlIo , lOIIo , olIIo , oOIlo , lOIlo , oOoIo , lOoIo , OIIIo , IIIIo , OOooO , IOooO , OOIlo , IOIlo , OOoIo , IOoIo , lIIIo , ooooO , lOooO , olooO , oIooo , OoIoO , IOlOo , loOOO , lIooo , loIoO , OllOo , IoOOO , OlIoo , looOO , lOIOo , llOOO , llIoo , IooOO , IOIOo , IlOOO , oOOoo , oOIoO , oIlOo , oOOOO , OOOoo , OOIoO , OIlOo , OOOOO , oIIoo , oOoOO , OlIOo , oIOOO , OIIoo , OOoOO , llIOo , OIOOO , Illoo , llIoO , loIOo , lOOOO , oIloo , IlIoO , IoIOo , IOOOO , oooOo , lOoOO , IlIOo , lIOOO , OooOo , IOoOO , oIIOo , IIOOO , lIloo , oIIoO , oOIOo , olOOO , IIloo , OIIoO , OOIOo , OlOOO , looOo , oloOO , OIIOo , oolOO , IooOo , OloOO , lIIOo , OolOO , oOIll oOlOl oOOll ololl ( lOIOl IoOll , IOIOl IOOll , oOOll lIoll ) OoIll lllll ooIOl oIOll , OIOll oOlOl lllll OOIOl loOll , Iolll oOlOl lllll ooIOl IIOll oIIOl loOOl OIIOl oOlOl Iolll IOlOl loOll IOlOl IoOll llooo OIlOl oOlOl Iooll ( loOll , oIOll ) oOlOl Iooll ( loOll , OIOll ) oOlOl IIOll oIIOl Ilooo OIIOl IOlOl oIOll oOlOl IIOll oIIOl OIoOl OIIOl IOlOl OIOll oOlOl Ololl ( ( olIOl ) IIOll , ( olIOl ) IIOll , IOOll , lIoll ) oOlOl oIOll IOlOl IIOll oIIOl Ilooo OIIOl oOlOl OIOll IOlOl IIOll oIIOl OIoOl OIIOl oOlOl lIOll ( oIOll , Iolll ) oOlOl lIOll ( OIOll , Iolll ) oOlOl lOlll ( Ilooo ) oOlOl oOIll #ifdef ALT_ECB #define D_ENCRYPT( L , R , S ) u = ( ( R ^ s [ S ] ) << 2 ) ; t = R ^ s [ S + 1 ] ; t = ( ( t >> 2 ) + ( t << 30 ) ) ; L ^= * ( LPDWORD ) ( des_SP + 0x0100 + ( ( t ) & 0xfc ) ) + * ( LPDWORD ) ( des_SP + 0x0300 + ( ( t >> 8 ) & 0xfc ) ) + * ( LPDWORD ) ( des_SP + 0x0500 + ( ( t >> 16 ) & 0xfc ) ) + * ( LPDWORD ) ( des_SP + 0x0700 + ( ( t >> 24 ) & 0xfc ) ) + * ( LPDWORD ) ( des_SP + ( ( u ) & 0xfc ) ) + * ( LPDWORD ) ( des_SP + 0x0200 + ( ( u >> 8 ) & 0xfc ) ) + * ( LPDWORD ) ( des_SP + 0x0400 + ( ( u >> 16 ) & 0xfc ) ) + * ( LPDWORD ) ( des_SP + 0x0600 + ( ( u >> 24 ) & 0xfc ) ) ; #else #define D_ENCRYPT( L , R , S ) u = ( R ^ s [ S ] ) ; t = R ^ s [ S + 1 ] ; t = ( ( t >> 4 ) + ( t << 28 ) ) ; L ^= des_SPtrans [ 1 ] [ ( t ) & 0x3f ] | des_SPtrans [ 3 ] [ ( t >> 8 ) & 0x3f ] | des_SPtrans [ 5 ] [ ( t >> 16 ) & 0x3f ] | des_SPtrans [ 7 ] [ ( t >> 24 ) & 0x3f ] | des_SPtrans [ 0 ] [ ( u ) & 0x3f ] | des_SPtrans [ 2 ] [ ( u >> 8 ) & 0x3f ] | des_SPtrans [ 4 ] [ ( u >> 16 ) & 0x3f ] | des_SPtrans [ 6 ] [ ( u >> 24 ) & 0x3f ] ; #endif #define PERM_OP( a , b , t , n , m ) ( ( t ) = ( ( ( ( a ) >> ( n ) ) ^ ( b ) ) & ( m ) ) , ( b ) ^= ( t ) , ( a ) ^= ( ( t ) << ( n ) ) ) lllll oOOll Ololl ( olIOl IoOll , olIOl oOlll , IOIOl IOOll , oOOll lIoll ) OoIll lllll ooIOl IlOll , OOlll , Illll , OIlll oOlOl #ifdef ALT_ECB lllll oIlOl oOooo lOoll IOlOl ( lIlll oOoll oOooo ) IOoll oOlOl #endif lllll oOOll ooOll oOlOl lllll olIOl IOlll oOlOl IlOll IOlOl IoOll oIIOl Ilooo OIIOl oOlOl OOlll IOlOl IoOll oIIOl OIoOl OIIOl oOlOl OlIOl ( OOlll , IlOll , Illll , lIOOl , IIIlO ) oOlOl OlIOl ( IlOll , OOlll , Illll , OoOOl , IloOo ) oOlOl OlIOl ( OOlll , IlOll , Illll , loOOl , loIol ) oOlOl OlIOl ( IlOll , OOlll , Illll , IolOl , OOOIo ) oOlOl OlIOl ( OOlll , IlOll , Illll , OIoOl , lIIol ) oOlOl Illll IOlOl ( OOlll lOlOl OIoOl ) loIll ( OOlll lllOl oIOOl ) oOlOl OOlll IOlOl ( IlOll lOlOl OIoOl ) loIll ( IlOll lllOl oIOOl ) oOlOl IlOll IOlOl Illll oOlOl IlOll Ioooo oIoOl oOlOl OOlll Ioooo oIoOl oOlOl IOlll IOlOl ( olIOl ) IOOll oOlOl OoOll ( lIoll ) OoIll IIoll ( ooOll IOlOl Ilooo oOlOl ooOll OOlOl OIOOl oOlOl ooOll IOooo lIOOl ) OoIll OoIOl ( IlOll , OOlll , ooOll OOooo Ilooo ) oOlOl OoIOl ( OOlll , IlOll , ooOll OOooo loOOl ) oOlOl oOIll oOIll OIoll OoIll IIoll ( ooOll IOlOl IlOOl oOlOl ooOll OllOl Ilooo oOlOl ooOll Olooo lIOOl ) OoIll OoIOl ( IlOll , OOlll , ooOll olooo Ilooo ) oOlOl OoIOl ( OOlll , IlOll , ooOll olooo loOOl ) oOlOl oOIll oOIll IlOll IOlOl ( IlOll lllOl OIoOl ) loIll ( IlOll lOlOl oIOOl ) oOlOl OOlll IOlOl ( OOlll lllOl OIoOl ) loIll ( OOlll lOlOl oIOOl ) oOlOl IlOll Ioooo oIoOl oOlOl OOlll Ioooo oIoOl oOlOl OlIOl ( OOlll , IlOll , Illll , OIoOl , lIIol ) oOlOl OlIOl ( IlOll , OOlll , Illll , IolOl , OOOIo ) oOlOl OlIOl ( OOlll , IlOll , Illll , loOOl , loIol ) oOlOl OlIOl ( IlOll , OOlll , Illll , OoOOl , IloOo ) oOlOl OlIOl ( OOlll , IlOll , Illll , lIOOl , IIIlO ) oOlOl oOlll oIIOl Ilooo OIIOl IOlOl IlOll oOlOl oOlll oIIOl OIoOl OIIOl IOlOl OOlll oOlOl lOlll ( Ilooo ) oOlOl oOIll #define ITERATIONS 16 #define HPERM_OP( a , t , n , m ) ( ( t ) = ( ( ( ( a ) << ( 16 - ( n ) ) ) ^ ( a ) ) & ( m ) ) , ( a ) = ( a ) ^ ( t ) ^ ( t >> ( 16 - ( n ) ) ) ) lllll oOOll Iloll ( lOIOl lOOll , IOIOl ollll ) OoIll lllll ooIOl looll , OOoll , Illll , IOlll oOlOl lllll OOIOl loOll oOlOl lllll olIOl OOOll oOlOl lllll oOOll ooOll oOlOl lllll oOoll Ollll oIIOl OoOOl OIIOl IOlOl OoIll Ilooo , Ilooo , OIoOl , OIoOl , OIoOl , OIoOl , OIoOl , OIoOl , Ilooo , OIoOl , OIoOl , OIoOl , OIoOl , OIoOl , OIoOl , Ilooo oOIll oOlOl OOOll IOlOl ( olIOl ) ollll oOlOl loOll IOlOl lOOll llooo OIlOl oOlOl Iooll ( loOll , looll ) oOlOl Iooll ( loOll , OOoll ) oOlOl OlIOl ( OOoll , looll , Illll , lIOOl , IIIlO ) oOlOl loIOl ( looll , Illll , olooo loOOl , IOoOl ) oOlOl loIOl ( OOoll , Illll , olooo loOOl , IOoOl ) oOlOl OlIOl ( OOoll , looll , Illll , OIoOl , lIIol ) oOlOl OlIOl ( looll , OOoll , Illll , IolOl , OOOIo ) oOlOl OlIOl ( OOoll , looll , Illll , OIoOl , lIIol ) oOlOl OOoll IOlOl ( ( ( OOoll loooo llOoo ) lOlOl OoOOl ) loIll ( OOoll loooo lloOo ) loIll ( ( OOoll loooo oOOIo ) lllOl OoOOl ) loIll ( ( looll loooo oloOl ) lllOl lIOOl ) ) oOlOl looll Ioooo oooIO oOlOl IIoll ( ooOll IOlOl Ilooo oOlOl ooOll OOlOl IoIOl oOlOl ooOll lOooo ) OoIll OoOll ( Ollll oIIOl ooOll OIIOl ) OoIll looll IOlOl ( ( looll lllOl loOOl ) loIll ( looll lOlOl IOOOl ) ) oOlOl OOoll IOlOl ( ( OOoll lllOl loOOl ) loIll ( OOoll lOlOl IOOOl ) ) oOlOl oOIll OIoll OoIll looll IOlOl ( ( looll lllOl OIoOl ) loIll ( looll lOlOl olOOl ) ) oOlOl OOoll IOlOl ( ( OOoll lllOl OIoOl ) loIll ( OOoll lOlOl olOOl ) ) oOlOl oOIll looll Ioooo oooIO oOlOl OOoll Ioooo oooIO oOlOl IOlll IOlOl oIoll oIIOl Ilooo OIIOl oIIOl ( looll ) loooo OOIol OIIOl loIll oIoll oIIOl OIoOl OIIOl oIIOl ( ( looll lllOl oolOl ) loooo lIloO ) loIll ( ( looll lllOl lolOl ) loooo oOIol ) OIIOl loIll oIoll oIIOl loOOl OIIOl oIIOl ( ( looll lllOl lIoOl ) loooo lIIlO ) loIll ( ( looll lllOl IIoOl ) loooo Oolol ) OIIOl loIll oIoll oIIOl llOOl OIIOl oIIOl ( ( looll lllOl IoOOl ) loooo lOOIo ) loIll ( ( looll lllOl oOOOl ) loooo lOIOO ) loIll ( ( looll lllOl OOOOl ) loooo IoIol ) OIIOl oOlOl Illll IOlOl oIoll oIIOl lIOOl OIIOl oIIOl ( OOoll ) loooo OOIol OIIOl loIll oIoll oIIOl IIOOl OIIOl oIIOl ( ( OOoll lllOl lolOl ) loooo lIloO ) loIll ( ( OOoll lllOl IolOl ) loooo oOIol ) OIIOl loIll oIoll oIIOl oolOl OIIOl oIIOl ( OOoll lllOl ooOOl ) loooo OOIol OIIOl loIll oIoll oIIOl lolOl OIIOl oIIOl ( ( OOoll lllOl oOOOl ) loooo lIIlO ) loIll ( ( OOoll lllOl OOOOl ) loooo Oolol ) OIIOl oOlOl oOooo ( OOOll lOooo ) IOlOl ( ( Illll lOlOl OoOOl ) loIll ( IOlll loooo IloOo ) ) loooo oIoOl oOlOl IOlll IOlOl ( ( IOlll lllOl OoOOl ) loIll ( Illll loooo IloOl ) ) oOlOl IOlll IOlOl ( IOlll lOlOl lIOOl ) loIll ( IOlll lllOl OlOOl ) oOlOl oOooo ( OOOll lOooo ) IOlOl IOlll loooo oIoOl oOlOl oOIll lOlll ( Ilooo ) oOlOl oOIll oOOll lloll ( lOIOl lOOll , IOIOl ollll ) OoIll lOlll ( Iloll ( lOOll , ollll ) ) oOlOl oOIll oOOll oIlll ( lOIOl IoOll , IOIOl olOll , IOIOl OlOll , IOIOl llOll , oOOll Oolll ) OoIll OoOll ( Oolll ollOl IIlOl ) OoIll ololl ( IoOll , olOll , IIlOl ) oOlOl ololl ( IoOll , OlOll , lIlOl ) oOlOl ololl ( IoOll , llOll , IIlOl ) oOlOl oOIll OIoll OoOll ( Oolll ollOl lIlOl ) OoIll ololl ( IoOll , llOll , lIlOl ) oOlOl ololl ( IoOll , OlOll , IIlOl ) oOlOl ololl ( IoOll , olOll , lIlOl ) oOlOl oOIll lOlll OIoOl oOlOl oOIll ooIll IIlll ( IOIOl OOOll ) OoIll oOIll ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:57:36 -0700 From: "Daniel." Subject: Re: strcpy() (was Re: GEB (was Re: number-o-mania...)) Actually the thing is supposed to return the original value of 'to', so: char *strcpy(char *to, char *from){ char *r = to; while (*to++ = *from++); return r; } -Daniel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:34:15 -0700 From: "Daniel." Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] how to comment your code more freely >,+[-.,+] Or if EOF is translated to 0, which seems a good idea, ,[.,] >OK, yeah you probably knew.. but just thought I'd throw it out there >anyways :) :) I had thought of that as it happens. But thanks. (I had my compiler mark the "pathological" cases [] and ][ with the string "??!" if the machine code is viewed as ASCII. A no-op was necessary at these places anyway, and the simplest form of no-op for the SPARC has 22 bits which can be set to whatever.) >I'd guess there is the argument that BF code should not be commented.. but >I don't go along with that. Nor do I. Also I think it should be formatted properly, if people are going to read it as opposed to merely marvelling at its brevity. Or is making any would-be readers indent the larger loops an important part of the game? >Jeff > >I've been doing too much BF coding lately Cool. Do you feel like sharing the results? -Daniel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 01:56:37 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: [lang] Re: [Announce] Smurf: a self-propagation tarpit On Fri, 4 May 2001, Matthew Westcott wrote: > > This looks nice. I'm still somewhat troubled about the quotify operation. > > List-like representation would make such an operation unnecessary. But > > it's your language. > > If you can come up with an alternative way of doing it, I'm open to > suggestions. I can't see how it could be done - data must be > represented in a different way to code (for example, as a list of > ASCII codes, or delimited by quotes), and the whole language is based > on turning data into code, so surely there'd always need to be some > sort of function to transfer between data and code. The quoting is a result of using a very limited data model (linear model that comes with text). One solution would be to use trees to represent programs / data. Then the "quoting" only means placing the data under a "quote" node in the tree, and commands could have implicit quoting for their arguments. Besides, I don't think data should be represented different from code, even in text. The only real difference between data and code in a language like this is that code is the data that gets executed. For example, if you have a line like (I already forgot the syntax of Smurf, but something like this): s = a = dodo Then `s = ' is a command whereas `a = dodo' is data, but when s is executed, `a = ' is a command and `dodo' is data. I think all data could be handled like this. > > There's no way to compare strings, > > Ah, but there is! It's incredibly contrived, as I'm sure you'll be > pleased to know. Wow. This _is_ cool. Now I'd like to see if somebody is able to make a Smurf program with two loops... Say, a program that reads lines until an empty line is input, then outputs the lines is reverse order....? > OK, I hereby declare it Good Practice for all Smurf and Muriel > programmers to make the first stage of their programs a > "decompressor" of this sort, to piece together the real program and > execute it. (Hmm, style guidelines for a language like this? That's > wishful thinking if ever I saw it...) Why not. In lambda calculus (where there is no quoting), it's very pretty and short: (^x.xx)(program) Panu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:37:21 +0300 (EET DST) From: Panu A Kalliokoski Subject: [lang] Re: ENSI page, anybody? On Fri, 1 Jun 2001, Brian Connors wrote: > So... how about an ENSI home page? > > http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/tarpit/ensi/index.html If you send them to me, I can put up an ensi page at (for example) http://esoteric.sange.fi/ensi/ > Yes, I know there's nothing there yet. But feel free > to offer things -- I will be putting up the ENSI draft > Brainfuck spec in a little bit. And I will be writing Be sure to include both versions. And link for "obsoletes" and "revised by". > an official song. I can even start a yahoogroups > mailing list if y'all want, though you'll probably > want ensi@esoteric.sange.fi instead... Probably. Some of my friends have been interested in standardisation, too, so I suppose this is worth doing anyway. (Though I do doubt the need for a separate list, misc@esoteric.sange.fi should be enough.) Panu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 01:32:34 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] how to comment your code more freely > >I've been doing too much BF coding lately > > Cool. Do you feel like sharing the results? > Hopefully soon. I have been working on a fairly difficult project, but its making progress. Let's just say that I thought I knew something about programming before I started :) I don't want to spoil the surprise yet tho.. there are still a few tough spots to finish up on. I dunno about you, but I have days where my clarity is ok for normal coding, but then BF takes an especially clear day to keep track of the demented stuff, and it drains my mental energy. After a few hours I usually end up wasting the rest of the day in front of the TV or something :P Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:12:33 -0700 (MST) From: Jeff Johnston Subject: Re: [lang] Re: ENSI page, anybody? > > an official song. I can even start a yahoogroups > > mailing list if y'all want, though you'll probably > > want ensi@esoteric.sange.fi instead... > > Probably. Some of my friends have been interested in standardisation, too, > so I suppose this is worth doing anyway. (Though I do doubt the need for a > separate list, misc@esoteric.sange.fi should be enough.) Sorry I thought ENSI was supposed to be a joke. Was it serious? :) If there ever is a standard developed, here is what works for me: I prefer 8-bit memory, and wrapping so that [-]- is 255. I haven't decided whether wrapping around on the two ends of memory is good or not. I don't echo back the characters as they are typed, because that seems to work better for prime and factor where they print out the number after it has been typed in. Maybe this all was already part of ENSI.. I dunno. Oh yeah.. I prefer the explanation of [ and ] (and really the rest of the commands) given on http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf. Thanks Brian :) There should be no upper or lower limit on the memory space.. otherwise the calculator implementations will be gone :) I was thinking about Visual BF the other day. { and } could select functions for . and , .. starting off of course they would be i/o for compatibility, but after { } any i/o could be using to specify the window dimensions, click events, etc ;) Jeff ------------------------------ From: Steve Mosher Subject: [lang] [Befunge] befunge!egnufeb Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:53:07 -0300 >,v v,< |:<>#a"SATANOSCILLATEMYMETALLICSONATAS"a#<>:| > ^# #^ < Forgive the choice of palendrome, it's the only one that ever sticks out in my head. Oh, yeah, this only works with implementations that push 10 on "a". (For the record, I haven't tested or debugged this.) Both the code and the output are palendromes. Enjoy. -- Steve Mosher, Mad Scientist Know this: the scarce insanity is a spoiled one - this is the way that confident things are. Sometimes, the absurdity becomes ominious, but keep the friend close to the child. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:43:37 -0700 From: Russell Bornschlegel Subject: [lang] [lex/yacc] Stack-based prefix/"Forward Polish" syntax? This really is going to get around to a pretty simple lex/yacc question, but I'm gonna ramble a bit first. I mentioned a while back my "Tsunami" audio processing scripting language. I think my original vision for the language turns out to be unworkable; every time I think of a new thing I want to do with it, I have to add features to the language rather than working within it. This is no particular surprise -- every amateur who's invented an insufficiently general programming language has been here. That pretty much left me with two choices: use one of a myriad audio-processing languages that already exist (SAOL being among the newest and fattest) or write a more general Tsunami-2 (Twonami?) language that would be extensible in-language. I'm not yet committed to one or the other, but I'm giving T-2 some serious consideration right now. So, while thinking about T-2, it hooked up with another language concept that's been floating around the back of my mind, this one being an interactive, extensible language suitable for embedding into computer games -- picture the "console" language of the Quake engine but evolved into a real programming language. (I think Serious Sam may have such a thing, actually.) I figured a stack- and-dictionary based language, like Forth, with primitives to hook into the problem domain, might be the way to go. A little free-association gave this concept the name "Talisker"[1]. However, Forth's "Reverse Polish"/postfix operator syntax just had to go for readability reasons[2]. How do you do a stack-based language without postfix operators? Simple, the parser reads each _line_ backwards, so the programmer writes: add 2 3 ; add-and-push, stack gets 5 ...and the translator reads: 3 2 add ; push 3, push 2, pop-pop-add-and-push, stack gets 5 ...and everyone's happy. It does mean that line breaks become significant, but that's not as onerous as, say, Python. So, I'm thinking that I just need to take a few primitives -- either simple to write or simple to lift from Tsunami-1, plunk them down into the Talisker framework, and I'll have a Real Programming Language that lets me do everything I can do in Tsunami-1 and then some. So, here's my question: What's the best way to implement a prefix-notation language using lex and yacc? It seems like lex would need to find the tokens on a line, throw out comments, then reverse them before presenting them to yacc. Maybe a lex-to-lex preprocessor? I'm very new to lex and yacc, so I don't know if they have any explicit features which would help with this kind of thing, or if there's a standard idiom for it... -Russell B [1] Forth -> Fifth -> Whiskey -> Talisker. I think all my programming languages from here on should be named after booze. [2] Do speakers of German and other at-the-end-of-the-sentence- the-verb-comes languages have more aptitude for Forth than do we 'merkins? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:39:57 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] Re: [lex/yacc] Stack-based prefix/"Forward Polish" syntax? Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > [...] > That pretty much left me with two choices: use one of a myriad > audio-processing languages that already exist (SAOL being among > the newest and fattest) or write a more general Tsunami-2 (Twonami?) Tsunamii :) > [...] How do you do a stack-based language > without postfix operators? Sally... > Simple, the parser reads each _line_ > backwards, so the programmer writes: > add 2 3 ; add-and-push, stack gets 5 > ...and the translator reads: > 3 2 add ; push 3, push 2, pop-pop-add-and-push, stack gets 5 Well, yes, you can do that (although be careful about order of arguments; where FORTH would have 3 4 /, you'd (presumably) have / 3 4, which reversed is 4 3 /. Just something to be wary of... > ...and everyone's happy. It does mean that line breaks become > significant, but that's not as onerous as, say, Python. [mild, gratuitous fake vomiting] You have to understand, working with Business BASIC on my day job has not exactly left me in love with the idea of line-feed being a syntactical construct distinct from space and tab. But y'know, especially if it's an interactive CLI thing, it can be lived with. But then you have to realize an entry like print "foo" print "bar" is going to reverse to "bar" print "foo" print which ain't going to do what you want. Are you going to restrict it to one command per line? It's starting to look like assembly language at that point :) > So, I'm thinking that I just need to take a few primitives -- > either simple to write or simple to lift from Tsunami-1, plunk > them down into the Talisker framework, and I'll have a Real > Programming Language that lets me do everything I can do in > Tsunami-1 and then some. Approaching it like a 'rewriting' problem (which is what you're doing by orienting it around a stack) sounds like a sane idea, yes. > So, here's my question: > What's the best way to implement a prefix-notation language using > lex and yacc? Well, one beauty of FORTH is that it basically doesn't need a parser. There's no nesting, so no recursion is necessary, and you've already got a (runtime) stack for arranging where 'results' should go. So all you need is a scanner (and the token makeup of FORTH is so simple that using lex would be overkill IMHO, again, qualified with the admission that I don't like parser/scanner generating tools. It's easier to become intimately familiar with code you wrote yourself...) Personally, I would toss the idea of reversing each line and then treating it like FORTH. I'd construct a prefix grammar, something like Sally's... something with productions in it like: Definition ::= "func" NewName {Call} "end". Call ::= DefinedName "(" {Call} ")" | Constant. Leading to code like... func main load("foo.mp3") select(0 120) copy() select(250) paste() /* or whatever */ end The "problem" here is that you need the parens around the arguments. Sally's way to omit the parens is for each function to know exactly how many arguments must be given to it. If you put the paren before the DefinedName then this is basically back to LISP again. Chris -- You can stop reading now... the rest is silence. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:03:54 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] [syntax] state vs. function Does anyone know of a language which makes a clear division between parts of the program which affect state and parts of the program which don't? Excepting Haskell, I don't like how it does it. What I'm thinking of is treating actions and derivations as seperate, non-interchangeable things with different syntax. An action would (possibly) change the state, but a derivation would never; a derivation would always return a value, but an action would never. Also, an action could only be invoked from another action, never from a derivation. I/O, changing environment variables, and so forth, would be actions. Reading a clock or the length of a disk file would probably be derivations... simple computations like sine and cosine would certainly be derivations. It seems to me that there is no language that makes this sort of division. Pascal has seperate 'procedures' and 'functions', but the syntax for invoking either of them is the essentially the same; it's worse in a language like C where, if the function does return a value, it's just thrown out, if called like a procedure. You can't tell if foo(3,"blah") affects state just by looking at it. And the situation doesn't seem much better with functional languages, for example in Erlang, where the very idea of using *any* updatable-store-based programming is discouraged. That's a good idea but it doesn't *solve* anything, as it's unavoidable practice in the field... "side-effects" are a fact of life, a computer is essentially a stateful, interactive machine. Does anyone know what language I might have missed that makes this distinction? Chris -- Confusion is inevitable, so you might as well get on her good side. ------------------------------ From: "shafalus" Subject: [lang] Re: [BF] how to comment your code more freely Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:13:21 +0200 Jeff Johnston wrote > I dunno about you, but I have days where my clarity is ok for normal > coding, but then BF takes an especially clear day to keep track of the > demented stuff, and it drains my mental energy. After a few hours I > usually end up wasting the rest of the day in front of the TV or something When I write too much BF it literally haunts my dreams for days afterwards. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:45:47 +0200 (CEST) From: "Rafal M. Sulejman" Subject: [lang] Re: [syntax] state vs. function On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > Does anyone know of a language which makes a clear division between > parts of the program which affect state and parts of the program which > don't? My brain just chocked -- BASIC ??? ;) > What I'm thinking of is treating actions and derivations as seperate, > non-interchangeable things with different syntax. An action would > (possibly) change the state, but a derivation would never; a derivation > would always return a value, but an action would never. Also, an action > could only be invoked from another action, never from a derivation. BASIC???? LET A = FNFoobar(10) PRINT A > I/O, changing environment variables, and so forth, would be actions. PRINT A : LET A = 100 > Reading a clock or the length of a disk file would probably be > derivations... simple computations like sine and cosine would certainly > be derivations. LET A = FNSin(90) ^^^^^^^^^ > It seems to me that there is no language that makes this sort of > division. Pascal has seperate 'procedures' and 'functions', but the > syntax for invoking either of them is the essentially the same; it's > worse in a language like C where, if the function does return a value, > it's just thrown out, if called like a procedure. You can't tell if > foo(3,"blah") affects state just by looking at it. > > Does anyone know what language I might have missed that makes this > distinction? BASIC. You're just *too* resonable ;)) Or my english is too weak to parse your questions ;) -- Rafal M. Sulejman Written at: # . . . . # . . . . # . . . # . ------------------------------ From: Gerson.Kurz@t-online.de (Gerson Kurz) Subject: [UGLIFY] New Version, New Ideas Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:41:19 +0100 The new version at http://www.p-nand-q.com/uglify.htm now has a option, where the source is preprocessed by your normal compiler before uglification. (Currently works with MSDEV only). This has the nice side-effect that a) you can do away with #includes completely, and b) sourcecode gets incredibly large (especially for the Windows headers) so its even more difficult than before to get what is going on. Isn't that nice. Loads of bugfixes, too. The global headerfile now looks something like #define QQ__oo_O(a3,a2,a1,a0) a0##a1##a2##a3 #define oo QQ__oo_O(e,c,n,o) #define _O__QQ _seterrormode #define _Oo_ QQ__oo_O(h,s,u,p) #define o___QQo_ QQ__oo_O(e,m,i,t) #define O__oo__O '~' #define _ooooo_O(a2,a1,a0) a0##a1##a2 #define o_QQO_ _ooooo_O(1,7,4) #define _OQQO_ _ooooo_O(3,7,4) #define o_oooo_O(a8,a7,a6,a5,a4,a3,a2,a1,a0) a0##a1##a2##a3##a4##a5##a6##a7##a8 #define ___Oooo_ o_oooo_O(i,i,c,s,a,o,t,_,_) etc., the source something like this: #include "readable.h" ooo_ QQo_ _o_O _oO_ o_O_ _OO_ O_O_ __O_ _oO_ o_O_ QQO_ _o__ __O_ _oO_ _o__ _O__ __O_ _oO_ _o__ O___ __O_ _oO_ QQ__ _ooo o_oo __O_ _oQQ o_QQ _o_O QQ__ _ooo _OQQ __O_ _OO_ O_QQ __O_ QQ__ _ooo __QQ __O_ _OO_ ooQQ __O_ _OO_ QQQQ __O_ _OO_ _o_oo_ __O_ _OO_ o__oo_ __O_ QQ__ _ooo _O_oo_ __O_ O__oo_ __O_ _oO_ _oQQ o_QQ ___oo_ __O_ ooo_ ___oo_ O_o_o_ __o_o_ ooo_o_ __O_ _oO_ o__Oo_ _O_Oo_ __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ _oO_o_ ( ___oo_ _ooo ) __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ o_O_o_ ( _OO_ , ___oo_ _ooo ) __O_ ___oo_ _ooo QQ_Oo_ _OO_o_ ( O_O_o_ QQ__ _ooo , O_O_o_ QQ__ _ooo , _OO_ ) __O_ ooO_o_ QQ_Oo_ QQO_o_ ( ___oo_ _ooo ) __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ _o__o_ ( ___oo_ _ooo ) __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ o___o_ ( ooO_o_ ) __O_ ___oo_ _ooo QQ_Oo_ _O__o_ ( _OO_ , O_O_o_ QQ__ _ooo ) __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ ____o_ ( ___oo_ _ooo ) __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ oo__o_ ( ___oo_ _ooo ) __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ QQ__o_ ( ___oo_ _ooo ) __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ _oooo_ ( ___oo_ _ooo ) __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ o_ooo_ ( ooO_o_ ) __O_ _OO_ QQ_Oo_ _Oooo_ ( ___oo_ _ooo , _O_Oo_ _ooo ) __O_ QQ__ _ooo QQ_Oo_ O_ooo_ ( QQ__ _ooo , _OO_ , ___oo_ _ooo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:25:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Connors Subject: any technovultures out there? I don't quite know if this is esoteric, but it's definitely miscellaneous. I'm in the process of writing up a document called "The Technovulture Manifesto", which will be a sort of creed for those (like me) who retrocompute not just for fun but survival (in my case, a terminal lack of funds means that every CPU I've bought since 1995 has been a hand-me-down). The whole technovulture thing essentially is a repudiation of irrational neophilia; it's the idea that unless you really need to see Lara Croft's erect nipples in the Himalayas a Pentium II's just as good as an Athlon. It's the idea that you don't need to throw it out if you can still work with it, the same reason lots of Mac users stuck with Word 5 long after Word 6 came out. So, anyone know of such a list so I don't go duplicating? And anyone have any ideas who I should contact to promote it? (as for vulture cred: MacOS 8.5 running on a Powerbook 5300 with 16MB of memory. I have other equally impressive and pointless skeletons in my closet.) /Brian ===== -- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Cal Henderson" Subject: pascal and c Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:10:11 +0100 i'd always thought that pascal was developed as a "learning language" for c. several source i've seen today say that pascal was developed in 1968, 4 years before C (in 1972). So which is true - which langauge came first? --cal i realise this is not very esoteric. just thought you'd be the people to know. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:46:47 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] Re: [syntax] state vs. function "Rafal M. Sulejman" wrote: > On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > > Does anyone know of a language which makes a clear division between > > parts of the program which affect state and parts of the program which > > don't? > [...] > BASIC. You're just *too* resonable ;)) By Jove, you're right! BASIC does make this distinction. Derivations use parens, actions don't (except maybe in Microsoft BASICs...) Thanks, this is even better than the idea I had :) Chris -- It is pitch dark. This .signature has been eaten by a grue. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:57:28 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: [lang] Re: Tsunami-2, was: [lex/yacc] Stack-based prefix/"Forward Russell Bornschlegel wrote: > This really is going to get around to a pretty simple lex/yacc > question, but I'm gonna ramble a bit first. Well, this may seem like the "cop-out" way to construct a language (which should be an utterly verboten topic on an "esoteric" mailing list, I suppose, but maybe it can spark conversation)... but, if you're looking for a quick solution you might want to look at slang: http://www.s-lang.org/ It's a set of libraries... although I doubt the screen & keyboard functions would do you any good, apparently the scripting language is intended to be extended with primitives which access the application functionality. So, you could just toss all your audio-manipulation functions into a table, write a bit of glue and voila, instant audio scripting language. But that's a cheap, dirty trick... Just like instant mashed potatoes. -- This sentence will be false in 20 seconds starting..... NOW! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:01:28 -0500 From: Chris Pressey Subject: Re: pascal and c Cal Henderson wrote: > i'd always thought that pascal was developed as a "learning language" for c. > several source i've seen today say that pascal was developed in 1968, 4 years > before C (in 1972). So which is true - which langauge came first? Pascal came first. Pascal was designed as a "teaching language". Although not necessarily "for" any other particular language. Although, it's common for people to recommend learning Pascal first before learning C - presumably because it's a gentler learning curve. Chris -- This sentence will be false in 20 seconds starting..... NOW! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 19:50:43 +0200 (CEST) From: "Rafal M. Sulejman" Subject: [lang] Re: [syntax] state vs. function On Fri, 29 Jun 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > By Jove, you're right! BASIC does make this distinction. > Derivations use parens, actions don't (except maybe in > Microsoft BASICs...) Thanks, this is even better than the > idea I had :) Not funny ;) If you're searching for broken syntaces (<-?) Snobol4 should be (probably) more interesting. Simple example - `cat' utility cat.sno ------------------------------ bunny output = input :s(bunny) end How it works ============ first line of program is marked with label `bunny'. [Everything starting in 1 column is a label. Why `bunny'? With `start' it will look like `begin' -- `end' pair in pascal. and first label IS NOT required.] The fragment output = input assigns to variable `output' value of variable' input (both are connected by default to (guess what) output and input stream (or files). if previous `action' was successful (not EOF) control is passed to label `bunny'. 'end' -- ends program (what a discovery!) -- it's a label (required). In fact your first program in S4 can be either $ s4 -b END ^D $ or $ s4 -b OUTPUT = "Hello, World" END ^D $ -- # . . . | Rafal M. Sulejman # . . # | . . # . | "It's a small world, but I wouldn't want # . . # | to have to paint it." --Steven Wright ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 21:24:11 +0200 (CEST) From: "Rafal M. Sulejman" Subject: [lang] Re: Tsunami-2, was: [lex/yacc] Stack-based prefix/"Forward On Fri, 29 Jun 2001, Chris Pressey wrote: > Russell Bornschlegel wrote: functionality. So, you could > just toss all your audio-manipulation functions into a > table, write a bit of glue and voila, instant audio > scripting language. > > But that's a cheap, dirty trick... > > Just like instant mashed potatoes. > If I'd have choice I'll rather vote for mashed potatoes than tsunami ;) Another possibility (Unix or 'Ritchie-Plauger' way) is to glue few basic utilities using eg. TCL with expect. Even dumb-ass M$' OS can be controlled programatically (I saw something on Chris' utilities page) and there was also... something british [parity errors?]... AutoIt! www.autoit.co.uk (or something like this). I know -- it's pure fun to write own language, but... you know your constraints. -- . # . . | Rafal M. Sulejman # . . . | . # . . | "It's a small world, but I wouldn't want . . # . | to have to paint it." --Steven Wright ------------------------------